Genetic defects/NH cows

[Betty]

To Jogeephus, we just got a heeler pup-
these are the same cows with the "curly calf", that was the AM.
Only 2 out of 18 had that trait, but most have the NH. We had some Bando 598 too, but got rid of those awhile ago.
Regarding not "passing it on" -- we sold a friend 2 bulls this spring that were halter broke and super tame and he rented them out to other people, oh boy, we had tested them in March before we sold them and they were negative for AM, the NH test wasn't available then. So, I offered to test the bulls for him for NH. I wonder what our liability is on this. I'm worried about it.

 

[kenny thomas]

You sold them in good faith with no known defects. If you had known and sold them it might be a different story. Don't worry about it.

 

[angus9259]

You sold them in good faith with no known defects. If you had known and sold them it might be a different story. Don't worry about it.

True. Still, I did replace a heifer I sold in this situation. I don't think you owe anyone anything in terms of liability. However, replacing an animal later you find out has an issue can be a good long term business move. But, I think this is a situation that's entirely your call and nothing is owed.

 

[Jogeephus]

You sold them in good faith with no known defects. If you had known and sold them it might be a different story. Don't worry about it.

True. Still, I did replace a heifer I sold in this situation. I don't think you owe anyone anything in terms of liability. However, replacing an animal later you find out has an issue can be a good long term business move. But, I think this is a situation that's entirely your call and nothing is owed.

I agree with angus and kenny. Reputation is everything if you want to be more than just a flash in the pan. From the sound of your posts it sounds to me you will do what is right whatever that might be. Hope you get it worked out cause I wouldn't mind buying a bull from someone like youself.

 

[Betty]

thank you.
I can't replace bulls as I cut them all this year due to NH. I will test them for the guy and then go from there.
My reputation is already screwed, we are a small community and people know already that my herd is carrying defects.
The black baldy option is starting to look just fine.

 

[Jogeephus]

thank you.
I can't replace bulls as I cut them all this year due to NH. I will test them for the guy and then go from there.
My reputation is already screwed, we are a small community and people know already that my herd is carrying defects.
The black baldy option is starting to look just fine.

I disagree. While your reputation in the angus world may be forever questionable your personal reputatation and integrity is, I think, still in tac. Its what you do from this point on which will ultimately determine what the community thinks of you. The wonderful thing is there are some excellent cattle breeds you could raise other than angus. (hope this don't get the thread locked) Changing the breeds would let your community see that you no longer have this problem and that you acted on it responsibly. I think this would say a lot and I think you would lso afind that all that glitters is not black.

 

[ga. prime]

Every breed has defects. Some are known and some are not.

 

[HerefordSire]

Black calves sell better here, found ourselves using black bulls, so got black cows too.

Would your statement be true (average wise) after you dump the carriers?

I don't think you have any choice but to offer to buy back the carriers because your reputation is on the line in a small community. Breeding black cattle for higher prices is not worth the risk of ruining your reputation. One would think you have figured this out already.

 

[Frankie]

thank you.
I can't replace bulls as I cut them all this year due to NH. I will test them for the guy and then go from there.
My reputation is already screwed, we are a small community and people know already that my herd is carrying defects.
The black baldy option is starting to look just fine.

If you wanted all black calves because black is what sells, then all ya had to do was use a homozygous black bull which almost 99% of black angus bulls are then it would have been genetically impossible for him to through anything other than black. I have homozygous black simmental bulls, whether the cow is red, green (sarcasm), purple (sarcasm), or yellow (sarcasm), the calves always come out black.

That homozygous black bull probably has Angus in his pedigree. So he could be a carrier, too. The AAA has addressed the problem. Check with your breed association to see how they're handling it.

 

[Betty]

I have 18 cows, 15 are carriers. Just found out another one (Granddaughter of Everelda Entense 1367 x GAR 1680 bull),my very best cow, super bag, smart as heck, wide, gentle is NHC. She also had a zillion genestars for tenderness,quality grade, and feed efficiency. I was really proud of that cow!
Pride go-eth before the fall, they say. "Seek ye great things?seek them not...." I seem to remember that quote from Church.

Thank goodness my husband has a good job.

 

[vclavin]

I have 18 cows, 15 are carriers. Just found out another one (Granddaughter of Everelda Entense 1367 x GAR 1680 bull),my very best cow, super bag, smart as heck, wide, gentle is NHC. She also had a zillion genestars for tenderness,quality grade, and feed efficiency. I was really proud of that cow!
Pride go-eth before the fall, they say. "Seek ye great things?seek them not...." I seem to remember that quote from Church.

Thank goodness my husband has a good job.

Betty,
I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I stayed away from 1680 bloodlines due to the negative scrotal epd's. Guess that turned out to be good for us. Although I did AI to Sydenstrickers Corona bull. Of the calves, we butchered and sold beef from 2 bulls and 2 steers - these were not tested as the EPD's were not "good" enough . We did test 1 bull and 1 cow and both were negative for AM and there is no NH in the pedigrees. For safety sake, we tested the previous herd bull for AM and NH and he was negative.
If you keep the girls, you only have a small window that allows the calves to be registered. After that, the positive cows will no longer be eligible for registering their offspring. Also, if you keep them, make sure the sire to future calves are not carriers. Nothing more disappointing than a dead calf.

Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[Betty]

It was my understanding that tested calves could be registered forever if they were negative.
So even if the calves test negative, if they came from NHC or AMC dams at some time in the future the calves can't be Reg. Angus?
5 cows are going bye-bye today.
Phenotypically, the best heifer calf I ever raised, a Lemmon Newsline out of a l680 grandaughter, huge butt, tiny head,
square is going to the feedlot. Her mother(2yrs old) and grandmother(9) are going grade and yield, all AMC.
The thing is making me crazy. Unfair to the cows. I'm paying a neighbor to haul them. I can't stand it.

 

[vclavin]

CHeck with the assoc, you may have time to hope for a heifer out of these girls to register if neg. I wouldn't give up yet, especially if they are that good.
call 816-383-9100 and ask about the registrations on their offspring. Ask for "registrations" they are really nice there. Really, you may have time to get nice defect free girls out of them.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[ccbr01]

If you have a clean calf, you can register it. The sunset prevision only allows for carriers to be registered to certain deadlines.

http://www.angus.org/Pub/GeneticPolicyLetter.html

Even after those days specified, if you have a clean calf, it can be registered. The thing is that do you want to pay for the tests though!

 

[Betty]

THe tests are expensive.
In fact yesterday I sold 8 head, and included one heifer that was pretty nice and
AMF and NHF, but her mother (AMC) -sold the mother too- was a Lucy Boy cow and I could never really trust those calves, at chute work some of them could really light up. Still culling based on disposition, I guess...
I'll do the tests, it's just NH. I sold all the AM cows. I'll keep 10 cows and 10 calves and feed out anything that's + and sell the rest as natural grass-fed. It could work out, I just won't be a breeder chasing the show market anymore.
My Everelda Intense granddaughter, boy she was a beauty, I hated to sell her, she was really something. Tall, huge udder, fine tits, lovely face. Big butt.
Two years ago someone offered me 2000 for her. She had gotten prolapsy. Plus NH. Just goes to show in farming when you CAN make money you need to grab the chance.

 

[ccbr01]

Betty,
I totally understand the culling of your calves. For us, we have three 1680 decedents, two of them are AMF-NHC and one is AMC-NHF. After talking it over with my family, we decided to keep all three and plan to AI them until time to move out. From that, we have had so so luck on the calves. The AMC cow has calved a AMC bull calf, but one of our NHC has calved a NHF heifer calf. So it's all up in the air.

 

[Betty]

Glad to hear it's possible for a NHC to have a NHF calf, hasn't seemed to be the case here so far, but I havent tested ALL of them, maybe all the steers are NHF, who knows.
Golly, when you add these DNA tests to all the other things one uses to cull, feet, repro, disposition, milking ability, it really will make it tough to save very many. But, I'm OK with the program I've embarked on now, it's just that I needed the dough from the Reg. bulls and Hfrs, that was the only real profit. There's not much money in meat.

 

[vclavin]

I feel so bad for you guys, I have been so very lucky so far. Guardian angels I suppose. I have had to test 2 bulls and 1 heifer - all clean.
1 bull we did not test as he was too small too sell as a bull anyway, not dwarf just small frame.
The others were really good eating Xbred bulls. Yum!
I really hope you are able to get heifers out of those good cows that are clean.
Selling meat may not make you rich but is still better than pounding them out at the sale barn. Have you tried young bull meat. Much better than steers, at least my customers and I think so. Better for those with heart conditions too - less fat.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[Betty]

Yes! Last year we butchered 2 baby bulls born in May -- we butchered them in March, and they were terrific, our clients loved them. Flavorful and tender, and they left before the heifers even started to come into heat in earnest. There was a little riding, but not bad at all. We thought to ourselves that we'd never cut any bulls again, what's the point? Plus, they were easy to work with, only had one cranky one, and he left early. They were like 1200 lbs, (live weight), so not such an enormous amt of beef to sell either. This year with the NH we just decided to cut them all because we didn't think any of them were likely to sell well as bulls, even if they did test free, people are DONE with Gar 1680 around here.
On another note, it's REALLY cold here, sick of winter already after one day!
Thanks for your input-Betty

 

[vclavin]

Me too Betty,
Going to be 17* tonight. Gotta keep the wood burner going. What a day to AI heifers/cows. Brrrrr. Supposed to snow next week. Not ready, except I think I like frozen ground better than knee deep mud.
UGH!!
Blessings
Valerie Clavin
Have a nice weekend Betty