Foundation Hereford Bulls

[Herefords.US]

I bet '76 doesn't think too favorably about the money that the AHA puts out for the Hereford Miniature shows either! :lol2:

George

 

[alexfarms]

Pure Gold sounds just what the Hereford breed needs more of-a big BW- pencil gutted piece of crap that throws bad uddered cattle that you cull around seven or eight but you can win a show with them. Why do we ask how come we lost market share to Angus-I wouldn't breed my mother in laws cows to a bull like that. Unbelievable!!! Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel! :lol2:

I have noticed an uptick in the amount of booze being drunk in the show barns the last several years. Judging from the current cattle market it will only get worse. Also, I would never even entertain the thought of being able to make a mating that my mother in law would be satisfied with.

 

[Hereford76]

My dad has 65 head and I just bought 20 head recently. The Feltons bloodlines are mostly 517 and we have around 9 Gerber Grasslander cows. I really like what the cows produce from just our bulls, we haven't AI'd in about 10 years. My goal is to breed the cows to these sires this year and hopefully get enough quality females and down the road breed the to more show sires to produce better show stock. Right now we mostly just get breed champions at county fairs around our area but I would like our customers to have more success at the state and local levels and seeing a majority of national winners have these sires in their bloodlines I figured we would start out by sampling a little probably with 25 or 30 cows in the herd.

I can't believe i still am stupid enough to register calves anymore... this is the thought that it goes to support. the aha uses more of its budget on the youth end of it and this is how its spent. they have to realize they are going to screw the breed all over again don't they. how can they think that by turning their backs on the industry that is supposed to be based on in sustainable?

????????????????????????

What do you suggest?

Cosgray - i appologize.... seems like i have come down on you a couple of times.

i don't think i can give any suggestions. i don't understand or quite see the whole picture i guess. my thoughts and ideas are gathered from a totally different place - but i do think we need to have a program to market our product. maybe sell it to someone who makes a living doing it instead of trying to do it in house or turn it over and just have a board committee oversee it not run it. i quit following the chb deal cause it seems pointless to do so - but the last i really kept up on it one of the bigger issues was supply. i don't know about todays specs but change a few parts there and supply wouldn't be an issue and we wouldn't half to try and sell a select product at the same time cause i just don't think the public buying into the "select" beef is going to do it. i personally do, but the average consumer today - no. in my opinion all the bricks are laid out we need to just stack them. i live in a state that is still production ag based (for how much longer... I wonder) and hereford guys here have got pretty good at taking care of themselves and helping themselves or they have disappeared. we haven't had representation since Dietz. the reason anyone runs for a spot in aha is to help in their retirement dispersal. every time a good one tries to get in they get railroaded. i really believe that if given a choice with par market avenues - ranchers would be cross breeding with more hereford bulls. if the straight hereford looking calf wasn't cut from the load i could sell 10 times the bulls. if they didn't have to worry about what to do with those calves...

 

[Herefords.US]

Pure Gold sounds just what the Hereford breed needs more of-a big BW- pencil gutted piece of crap that throws bad uddered cattle that you cull around seven or eight but you can win a show with them. Why do we ask how come we lost market share to Angus-I wouldn't breed my mother in laws cows to a bull like that. Unbelievable!!! Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel! :lol2:

I have noticed an uptick in the amount of booze being drunk in the show barns the last several years. Judging from the current cattle market it will only get worse. Also, I would never even entertain the thought of being able to make a mating that my mother in law would be satisfied with.

Come to think of it, that may be why I didn't enjoy the whole "show extravaganza" as much as I thought I would! I don't drink! :lol:

George

 

[CosgrayHerefords]

I agree it is good advice 76, I was referring to user1's comments sorry if I wasn't being clear. Where I live the best way to make money is the show route. I can make more money raising show heifers and steers than I ever could feeders or range bulls simply because we don't have range around here. Occasionally we sell a bull to a commercial guy but for the most part all of our income from cattle comes from guys wanting show heifers or bulls that will produce these females and we have been pretty successful without using the mainstream genetics. Well I am wanting to take that to the next level and start competeting on the national level, and the way to do that is to use mainstream genetics. Also I am more interested in the show side of the industry and it is what I am most experienced with. However, I have to disagree with some who think the showring is detrimental to the production side of the industry. We all strive for the same thing in the PUREBRED industry. Sound, fertile, easy keeping females who produce calves with style and substance and who gain on grass and milk. I do believe the cross bred show industry has made others look bad with their outrageous birth weights and genetic defects.

 

[Hereford76]

Where I live the best way to make money is the show route. I can make more money raising show heifers and steers than I ever could feeders or range bulls simply because we don't have range around here. Occasionally we sell a bull to a commercial guy but for the most part all of our income from cattle comes from guys wanting show heifers or bulls that will produce these females and we have been pretty successful without using the mainstream genetics. Well I am wanting to take that to the next level and start competeting on the national level, and the way to do that is to use mainstream genetics. Also I am more interested in the show side of the industry and it is what I am most experienced with.

i'm right there with ya.... more power to you. i'm the same only on the production side of it.

However, I have to disagree with some who think the showring is detrimental to the production side of the industry. We all strive for the same thing in the PUREBRED industry. Sound, fertile, easy keeping females who produce calves with style and substance and who gain on grass and milk.

If you and i are the same within the purebred industry and we all strive for the same thing we wouldn't be having this discussion. i'd stick to selling show critters and next time don't sell that commercial man the bull cause in my mind that is the problem.

i would like someone to answer NR's question

Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk

 

[Northern Rancher]

I call them as I see them!!! The showring is more a social networking function rather than a mechanism for breed improvement-the whole premise is rather silly-some perceived expert slapping an overfat bull on the ass and the purebred breeder lemmings lining up to use him A'I is so far removed from the nuts and bolts of the cattle business it's almost sad. I guess the showring did identify 7777's as the best F1 bull of his time lol. By all means slap your halters on and schmooze but don't pretend it's got anything to do with breeding real world cattle.

 

[Watertondifter]

Can someone here please mix Northern wanna be Rancher a drink.....HE's done got his panties in a knot again...Relax man......lmao :lol:

 

[Brandonm22]

i would like someone to answer NR's question

Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk

Don't ask me. Heck I am dawg awful with a set of clippers. You would be better off letting your kids figure out how to clip their own calf than hire me to do it. The last time I went to Denver the bull I thought was probably the best in the place didn't even win his class. I have a grand total of ZERO posts on the show boards. When Cosgray made it clear he wanted bulls that would win SHOWS, I didn't make any recommendations (Devo!!) because that is FAR outside my limited realm of experience. Oh, and I don't drink either!!

 

[ollie?]

i would like someone to answer NR's question

Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk

Denver for example provides a good place for purebred producers to offer their livestock for sale and have a large group of cattlemen with money in their pocket walk by and evaluate their stock. I was visiting with a man I had just met while I was walking through the yards there a few years back. He was ranching in California and he took me and showed me the several bulls he had just purchased for a considerable sum. 6 or 8 if I remember correctly and they were somewhere over 2500 each. He bought them from some folks from Indiana. Likely enough these two would have never exchanged bulls for money if it hadn't been for the forum provided by the National Western. I never have seen his cow herd but the bulls he bought were nice stock and from what little I know about the man, he was neither a wanna-be cattleman nor a drunk. He said he bought several bulls each year at Denver.

 

[Hereford76]

i'd be willing to bet he bought them out of the yards.

 

[ollie?]

i'd be willing to bet he bought them out of the yards.

He did but there were better cattle on the hill , and worse.

 

[smnherf]

I was going to stay out of this discussion when I read the original post, but after some of the discussion on the troubles with a popular name show bull, I have to voice my concern. No wonder our market share has declined over the last few decades.

Occasionally we sell a bull to a commercial guy
If you use a bull like Pure Gold, and he knowingly sires poor pop bottle teats, will you sell him to a commercial cattleman? When that happens, it quite often ruins that customer for any future Hereford bull sales and you are essentially destroying a customer base for those of us that depend on this for our living. On top of that he often tells all his friends about it and that gives the entire breed a bad name. The commercial guys in my country who run 100 to 800 cows cant tolerate problems. Big birthweights, bad udders, slow calves, bad feet, bad eyes, hard fleshing, slow growing, are only some of the major problems that are prominent in some of the show cattle that give all Herefords a bad name and when these genetics filter into the commercial sector, and they do, they make my job and guys like Hereford76 much more difficult and on top of it use my registration fees to do promote that side of the industry.

but for the most part all of our income from cattle comes from guys wanting show heifers or bulls that will produce these females and we have been pretty successful without using the mainstream genetics. Well I am wanting to take that to the next level and start competeting on the national level, and the way to do that is to use mainstream genetics.

Thats fine to do it, but casterate the bulls and sell them as steers.

Also I am more interested in the show side of the industry and it is what I am most experienced with. However, I have to disagree with some who think the showring is detrimental to the production side of the industry. We all strive for the same thing in the PUREBRED industry. Sound, fertile, easy keeping females who produce calves with style and substance and who gain on grass and milk. I do believe the cross bred show industry has made others look bad with their outrageous birth weights and genetic defects.

Lets be honest here, we are not striving for the same things. Most of the popular show cattle would either end up open or starve on my place. We are breeding for a totally different endpoint that requires totally different selection criteria. I am breeding for a low maintance, high fertility, feed efficient female that can produce a calf that can gain 4 lbs a day in the feedlot and grade choice. The show cattle industry is breeding for a totally different endpoint. It is driven primarily by phenotype that will look good after they have been hand fed for months. Lets be honest with ourselves here.

I will get off my soapbox now.

Brian

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well your making more sense from your soapbox than the guys sitting on their tack box at Denver!

 

[HerefordSire]

Cosgray - i appologize.... seems like i have come down on you a couple of times.

i don't think i can give any suggestions. i don't understand or quite see the whole picture i guess. my thoughts and ideas are gathered from a totally different place - but i do think we need to have a program to market our product. maybe sell it to someone who makes a living doing it instead of trying to do it in house or turn it over and just have a board committee oversee it not run it. i quit following the chb deal cause it seems pointless to do so - but the last i really kept up on it one of the bigger issues was supply. i don't know about todays specs but change a few parts there and supply wouldn't be an issue and we wouldn't half to try and sell a select product at the same time cause i just don't think the public buying into the "select" beef is going to do it. i personally do, but the average consumer today - no. in my opinion all the bricks are laid out we need to just stack them. i live in a state that is still production ag based (for how much longer... I wonder) and hereford guys here have got pretty good at taking care of themselves and helping themselves or they have disappeared. we haven't had representation since Dietz. the reason anyone runs for a spot in aha is to help in their retirement dispersal. every time a good one tries to get in they get railroaded. i really believe that if given a choice with par market avenues - ranchers would be cross breeding with more hereford bulls. if the straight hereford looking calf wasn't cut from the load i could sell 10 times the bulls. if they didn't have to worry about what to do with those calves...

I would say this is one of the better posts I have read here.

 

[Elder Statesman]

However, I have to disagree with some who think the showring is detrimental to the production side of the industry. We all strive for the same thing in the PUREBRED industry. Sound, fertile, easy keeping females who produce calves with style and substance and who gain on grass and milk. I do believe the cross bred show industry has made others look bad with their outrageous birth weights and genetic defects.

There is no place in the purebred or commercial industry for 1400 lb. yearling heifers and yearling bulls with 3/4 of an inch or greater backfat. And that is in purebred shows, not crossbred.

There have been too many folks new to the Hereford business who get suckered in by the glitz and glamour of show stock. These people get conned into buying the lastest show winning bloodlines or culls from big name show breeders and 3 years down the road are stuck with a bunch of crap. Then two years later, due to frustation, they get out of the breed or the cattle business. I have seen it happen too many times. Some are folks who buy a half dozen cows and some spend hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in the breed. It always seems they get pointed to the show folks to buy their stock and often end up getting the shaft. I'm sure it happens in other breeds as well.

That is the kind of "benefit" I see from the show ring.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>Pure Gold daughter purchased from the Colyers. She had an excellent
show career and has become a great young cow. She doesn't have a calf
at side because we held her open to flush her this spring. She didn't line
up to flush so we bred her AI to get her back in calf. She will power up her
offspring. Look at her calves. Daughters sell as Lots 155 and 166.<<

Why don't we hold this outfits like Colyer's feet to the fire for selling all these high dollar show animals that have zero "real world" ability?

 

[Herefords.US]

>>Pure Gold daughter purchased from the Colyers. She had an excellent
show career and has become a great young cow. She doesn't have a calf
at side because we held her open to flush her this spring. She didn't line
up to flush so we bred her AI to get her back in calf. She will power up her
offspring. Look at her calves. Daughters sell as Lots 155 and 166.<<

Why don't we hold this outfits like Colyer's feet to the fire for selling all these high dollar show animals that have zero "real world" ability?

For one thing, Colyer's cattle DO have "real world ability".

George

 

[blackcowz]

Welp, I need to stay out of this, but my love and passion for showing the "fuzzies" compels me to speak. In simpler language, as was mentioned before, you don't always have to have papers on cattle to get them into a "breed" division. Take for example the bulls Red Rock, Cotton Mouth, Carpe Diem, etc. A far cry from 100% straight Hereford. But they will throw calves that look like Herfs and hence qualify for a breed show or breed division. Again, as was alluded to, you can sell good calves for good money. $5000, however, is becoming a little more rare in this economy. But, the Hereford marked calves that can qualify by color for a breed show are the hot thing going. Of course, next it'll be blue roans, then smokies, then really chromed up blacks, etc. But, you might want to cash in on the bandwagon while it's rolling. Just a thought for those 20 or 30 cows.

 

[Watertondifter]

It's rather interesting that domino 552 has seen many of his offspring do quite well in the show ring. That must mean that they are useless in your real cattle world, right Northern Rancher????? lets see.....hmm...20P...hmmm...but I'm sure 20P's mom is a proven producer...but he seems to have no registered maternal sibs....Hmmmm..... oh..here it is...552 goes back to a bull that sold in denver for $301000 for half interest....Who was also the 1980 Champion ......F-r 20P must be just a show bull....oh well...guess I will have to forget him as my new A.I. sire...I'll just go back to the holden or Cooper.....they don't show cattle so they must be Good.......rather interesting that many show winners descend from their cattle though...oh dear..now what will I do...lol...I guess I should shop for a hereford bull in north central Alberta like you...I hear the breeders there are on the cutting edge of the beef industry...lol...like bigtime have their fingers on the true pulse of the North American cattle industry as a whole...lol.... rather interesting though that they are steadily going out of the bull selling business....lol.