Foundation Hereford Bulls

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CosgrayHerefords

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I have been going over this with my dad about which bulls to use for next breeding season. I am wanting to breed a majority of our herd to influential sires from the breed. Our herd consists of mostly of Butler, Bond, Victor, Felton, and Gerber bloodlines. I was thinking about using 19D, 98170, Devo, 512, P606, 46B, and 506E but was wondering what people thought of these bulls and maybe some suggestions of better maternal bulls. I am looking for these matings to produce replacement females with good udders, depth, and length all while being easy fleshing and sound.
 

tlmcr

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I like M326, we just calved out our first daughters of him and they have nice udders are easy fleshing and sound. We will use him again. The knock I have heard on the bull is his calves were not consitant in type, but we did not experience that. His calves sell well in production sales also.
 

Brandonm22

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I don't know how many cows you have; but you said you have 5 major bloodlines: Victor, Feltons (517 or 774?), Butler, Gerber (a great breeder but they used a lot of different cattle), and Bond (pretty much an outcross too everything) and now it sounds like you are looking for more outcross genetics. I am no linebreeder; but I think you might want to establish a plan for where you want to go with the cattle and introduce a little more uniformity. The bulls you listed are all good bulls; but I am having a hard time visuallizing what you are trying to do here.
 

Herefords.US

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I agree with Brandon. I think you're trying to do too much! I've said it to you before - but again I'd pick a couple of good bulls and stick to using a couple a year, trying to build uniformity in your replacement females.

The only bull in your list that I've had a lot of experience with is Pure Gold (98170). Pure Gold does a lot of things right. He will sire a set of uniform, moderate framed calves out of cows of varying bloodlines and type. He will add thickness of muscling with a showring competitive phenotype - as much or more than any contemporary bull out there. His daughters will be good milkers ...BUT be prepared for them to not have the prettiest udders with small teats that are ideal. Some teats will eventually become bottle-like. I culled my first Pure Gold daughter at the age of 7 this year primarily for large teats and have 3-4 more of the same age that I'm watching. Pure Gold also won't do anything positive for your BW and calving ease EPDs - if that is an issue for you. Likewise for IMF%. And some of his progeny appear to be a little pencil gutted, particularly if they are out of cows that lack capacity. Overall, I really like the bull and his progeny, but he's not the "greatest breeding bull since Prince Domino" that I proclaimed him to be when I first saw him and his calves in 2002. He is a good tool in a well thought out breeding program.

I do have a single 19D daughter. She's a beautiful cow, maybe the prettiest cow on the place - very easy keeping with a beautiful udder - but she comes in as below average in my herd when it comes to her calves. They always start out looking good, but virtually every first calf heifer I've put into the herd will eventually outperform her in raising a calf. She's a 2002 model and the only reason that she's stayed this long is because she does have a calf every year, I've had plenty of pasture, and she's been a curiosity for me. She's going to be sold next spring when her September heifer calf gets old enough to wean. I'm betting that her heifer calf will be on that same load going to auction. But one cow isn't a great indicator of what 19D might do.

George
 

rocket2222

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Herefords.US":280xtb67 said:
I do have a single 19D daughter. She's a beautiful cow, maybe the prettiest cow on the place - very easy keeping with a beautiful udder - but she comes in as below average in my herd when it comes to her calves. They always start out looking good, but virtually every first calf heifer I've put into the herd will eventually outperform her in raising a calf. She's a 2002 model and the only reason that she's stayed this long is because she does have a calf every year, I've had plenty of pasture, and she's been a curiosity for me. She's going to be sold next spring when her September heifer calf gets old enough to wean. I'm betting that her heifer calf will be on that same load going to auction. But one cow isn't a great indicator of what 19D might do.

George

Err George, isn't that what we are looking for, cows that have calves that out perform themselves, [ I think we call them herd improvers ] :) if it had been the other way round, and her calves didn't perform, you would have really been a fussing. :lol:
 

Herefords.US

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rocket2222":z70p05p2 said:
Herefords.US":z70p05p2 said:
I do have a single 19D daughter. She's a beautiful cow, maybe the prettiest cow on the place - very easy keeping with a beautiful udder - but she comes in as below average in my herd when it comes to her calves. They always start out looking good, but virtually every first calf heifer I've put into the herd will eventually outperform her in raising a calf. She's a 2002 model and the only reason that she's stayed this long is because she does have a calf every year, I've had plenty of pasture, and she's been a curiosity for me. She's going to be sold next spring when her September heifer calf gets old enough to wean. I'm betting that her heifer calf will be on that same load going to auction. But one cow isn't a great indicator of what 19D might do.

George

Err George, isn't that what we are looking for, cows that have calves that out perform themselves, [ I think we call them herd improvers ] :) if it had been the other way round, and her calves didn't perform, you would have really been a fussing. :lol:

Those weren't HER heifers that I was talking about putting into the herd, rocket! I was trying to say that almost any first calf heifer I've had has outperformed her - and she certainly underperforms her mature contemporaries. She's only had one heifer(other than her latest calf), her very first calf - and you're right the daughter is a better calf raiser than her mother - but I'm highly skeptical that she got that ability from her dam. More likely her sire!

George
 

rocket2222

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Herefords.US":16dvvd1g said:
rocket2222":16dvvd1g said:
Herefords.US":16dvvd1g said:
I do have a single 19D daughter. She's a beautiful cow, maybe the prettiest cow on the place - very easy keeping with a beautiful udder - but she comes in as below average in my herd when it comes to her calves. They always start out looking good, but virtually every first calf heifer I've put into the herd will eventually outperform her in raising a calf. She's a 2002 model and the only reason that she's stayed this long is because she does have a calf every year, I've had plenty of pasture, and she's been a curiosity for me. She's going to be sold next spring when her September heifer calf gets old enough to wean. I'm betting that her heifer calf will be on that same load going to auction. But one cow isn't a great indicator of what 19D might do.

George

Err George, isn't that what we are looking for, cows that have calves that out perform themselves, [ I think we call them herd improvers ] :) if it had been the other way round, and her calves didn't perform, you would have really been a fussing. :lol:

Those weren't HER heifers that I was talking about putting into the herd, rocket! I was trying to say that almost any first calf heifer I've had has outperformed her - and she certainly underperforms her mature contemporaries. She's only had one heifer, her very first calf - and you're right the daughter is a better calf raiser than her mother - but I'm highly skeptical that she got that ability from her dam. More likely her sire!

George

oops :lol:
 
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CosgrayHerefords

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My dad has 65 head and I just bought 20 head recently. The Feltons bloodlines are mostly 517 and we have around 9 Gerber Grasslander cows. I really like what the cows produce from just our bulls, we haven't AI'd in about 10 years. My goal is to breed the cows to these sires this year and hopefully get enough quality females and down the road breed the to more show sires to produce better show stock. Right now we mostly just get breed champions at county fairs around our area but I would like our customers to have more success at the state and local levels and seeing a majority of national winners have these sires in their bloodlines I figured we would start out by sampling a little probably with 25 or 30 cows in the herd.
 

Herefords.US

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CosgrayHerefords":3uj1mdac said:
My dad has 65 head and I just bought 20 head recently. The Feltons bloodlines are mostly 517 and we have around 9 Gerber Grasslander cows. I really like what the cows produce from just our bulls, we haven't AI'd in about 10 years. My goal is to breed the cows to these sires this year and hopefully get enough quality females and down the road breed the to more show sires to produce better show stock. Right now we mostly just get breed champions at county fairs around our area but I would like our customers to have more success at the state and local levels and seeing a majority of national winners have these sires in their bloodlines I figured we would start out by sampling a little probably with 25 or 30 cows in the herd.

If producing show cattle is a goal, then I'd AI all of them I could afford (at $100 a straw and $75 a cert) to Pure Gold!

George
 

HerefordSire

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Of the ones you have listed, I would say use 512, the first year, on all cows with very low BW EPDs. For the 517 influenced cows, I would try to preserve or increase the percentage of 517 influence for later use. For the remaining, I would consider using Mohican Mint, MC Ranger, and or Remitall Online.
 

KNERSIE

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I've also said it before, but I'll say it one last time, from then on you're on your own....

Decide on a type you want to breed, select 2 or max 3 bulls of that type, but who lean SLIGHTLY to different strengths and use this SLIGHT variety to adress issues your cowherd might have. No customer want to see a dozen different type calves out of a dozen different sires out of a hodge podge cow herd.

Contrary to popular believe you don't address extremes with extremes.
 

Northern Rancher

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Pure Gold sounds just what the Hereford breed needs more of-a big BW- pencil gutted piece of crap that throws bad uddered cattle that you cull around seven or eight but you can win a show with them. Why do we ask how come we lost market share to Angus-I wouldn't breed my mother in laws cows to a bull like that. Unbelievable!!! Can anybody tell me one positive thing the show ring has done for any breed of cattle-besides provide an avenue for a bunch of wanna-be cattlemen to spend money and get drunk.
 

Herefords.US

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HerefordSire":1zgxj2x8 said:
Of the ones you have listed, I would say use 512, the first year, on all cows with very low BW EPDs. For the 517 influenced cows, I would try to preserve or increase the percentage of 517 influence for later use. For the remaining, I would consider using Mohican Mint, MC Ranger, and or Remitall Online.

HS, are you going to donate some of your Online semen to him? :?:

If he doesn't already have the semen on hand, at the price of $1000 a straw and $250 a cert, I think you'd be hard pressed to justify using Online for a flush anymore, much less for a straight AI!

After looking at all the videos of the show heifer sales this fall, breeding for show cattle, I'd be inclined to buy a Nitro package at $2500 for 25 straws and getting the certs at cost.
nitro_den09_lg.jpg


I think he had the most impressive group of daughters of any sire represented.
Info on semen packages here:
http://hereford.com/hereford/nitro.html


George
 

SRBeef

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Herefords.US":2btkzxuv said:
...If producing show cattle is a goal, then I'd AI all of them I could afford (at $100 a straw and $75 a cert) to Pure Gold!

George

I would really have to echo Knersie and NR -

You say yourself that Pure Gold did not make good cows or something to that effect. Why in heavens name would you then recommend using him for show cattle??? Is the show ring so far removed from day to day production???

As I am new to cattle I was under the impression that the FFA, County Fairs and other competitions had the goal of helping kids to learn to identify superior animals and help develop the breeds.

I recently had a beer next to a fellow who raises show calves for sale. I found it hard to believe what he was telling me about the steps used in raising show cattle... Looks like that is a whole different world and one which has little or nothing to do with the production cattle business.

Seems like there ought to be a warning label on show cattle sires and dams... "CAUTION - FOR SHOW RING USE ONLY - USE IN REAL WORLD APPLICATIONS MAY CAUSE FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY"

fwiw. Jim
 

user1

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The showring is the downfall of the beef industry....it has nothing to do with the beef industry.....just another Miss America contest for cattle. I apologize to Miss America for the slam.
 

Herefords.US

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SRBeef":1b3ds3ms said:
Herefords.US":1b3ds3ms said:
...If producing show cattle is a goal, then I'd AI all of them I could afford (at $100 a straw and $75 a cert) to Pure Gold!

George

I would really have to echo Knersie and NR -

You say yourself that Pure Gold did not make good cows or something to that effect. Why in heavens name would you then recommend using him for show cattle??? Is the show ring so far removed from day to day production???

As I am new to cattle I was under the impression that the FFA, County Fairs and other competitions had the goal of helping kids to learn to identify superior animals and help develop the breeds.

I recently had a beer next to a fellow who raises show calves for sale. I found it hard to believe what he was telling me about the steps used in raising show cattle... Looks like that is a whole different world and one which has little or nothing to do with the production cattle business.

Seems like there ought to be a warning label on show cattle sires and dams... "CAUTION - FOR SHOW RING USE ONLY - USE IN REAL WORLD APPLICATIONS MAY CAUSE FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY"

fwiw. Jim

What I said was, with Pure Gold daughters, you weren't going to get the perfect udder with small teats that everyone likes. And you may have some that become a problem.

You know, I've yet to see the PERFECT bull that will do everything for everybody! If any of you can find him, let us all know - so we can all breed to him!

Pure Gold adds a great amount of thickness and muscling. He also works very well across a broad spectrum of different type cattle and different type bloodlines giving you a uniform group of calves. And he probably does this better than any other bull out there. But he's not a PERFECT bull for everything. He's not going to reduce birthweight, he's not going to add IMF%, and he's not likely to improve udders.

I'm not going to debate the merits of the showring. The fact is that there's a lot of people involved in that area of Hereford cattle and Cosgray expressed a strong interest in it, so I gave him the best information I could - a very honest assessment.

Again, if I had a mongrelized herd of Hereford cattle and I wanted to develop my herd for producing showring competitive cattle, I'd breed every cow to Pure Gold that I could afford to. He will get a breeder there faster and the proof is in the list of winners over the past few years.

George
 

user1

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He will get a breeder there faster and the proof is in the list of winners over the past few years.

A showjock yes....a cowman NO. The beef industry revolves around beef not the showring mongrel crap
 

Herefords.US

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user1":15zgce4h said:
He will get a breeder there faster and the proof is in the list of winners over the past few years.

A showjock yes....a cowman NO. The beef industry revolves around beef not the showring mongrel crap

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but so are those who choose to focus on winning in the showring.

And I don't mean to peg Pure Gold strictly as a showring sire. I have a number of daughters who have done OK raising calves in some pretty sparse conditions.

George
 

user1

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I have a number of daughters who have done OK raising calves in some pretty sparse conditions.

Besides having that udder thing come up sure is a pesky thing. Are they tame enough to milk out in the pasture?
 

user1

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but so are those who choose to focus on winning in the showring.

That showring has sure been a leader in the beef industry.....especially when they excuse bad udders..........that is not the cow industry sir that is a beauty contest.
 

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