for the experts: Angus-Hereford

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A

Anonymous

Everyone knows I'm not much into Angus nor any English breed for the exception that my Dad 25 years ago use some Herefords in his commercial herd, now here is the question.

What's the need to crossbreed Angus with Herefords?

What would be the benefits or differences you will obtain than having purebreds Angus or Herefords?

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A

Anonymous

Heterosis. The same reason you cross charolais and limousin. Accept with the balck baldy you get good quality grade instead of good yield grade with the continentals.

dun

> Everyone knows I'm not much into
> Angus nor any English breed for
> the exception that my Dad 25 years
> ago use some Herefords in his
> commercial herd, now here is the
> question.

> What's the need to crossbreed
> Angus with Herefords?

> What would be the benefits or
> differences you will obtain than
> having purebreds Angus or
> Herefords?
 
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A

Anonymous

It will be a great idea to crossbreed Red Angus x Hereford cows with Limousin bulls.

> Heterosis. The same reason you
> cross charolais and limousin.
> Accept with the balck baldy you
> get good quality grade instead of
> good yield grade with the
> continentals.

> dun

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A

Anonymous

Or use breeds that have some maternal value and yield grade value, Gelbvieh or Simmenthal

dun

> It will be a great idea to
> crossbreed Red Angus x Hereford
> cows with Limousin bulls.
 
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A

Anonymous

the use of any dual purpose continental breed would be better, as I understood.

They offer me 80 cows, Red Angus-Hereford, 4-5 yrs., beganing calving by Feb.15 and I can A.I. or bred them with some of my bulls

> Or use breeds that have some
> maternal value and yield grade
> value, Gelbvieh or Simmenthal
> dun

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A

Anonymous

>I think any F1 english or cont.breed cross with any Brahman cross would make good cattle. Only thing that is important is to select the right color,Brahman %, for you market.. I think 1/2 Black Angus ,1/4 contential breed,with a 1/4 brangus(Black) would give a high % of black terimial calves.As for the market the more breeds combinations the better..

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A

Anonymous

We usr Red Angus on Polled Herefords, Polled Herefords on red and Black Angus. Polled Hereford or Red Angus on F1 Red Angus Gelbvieh. We will be using Simmenthal on most of the Angus this year with the heifers bred back either Red Angus or Polled Hereford. We are looking for the maternal with some muscle from the continentals and high quality grade and maternal from the british with a moderate size. We market on a grid that pays us the premiums but all of the calves from the 20 some odd co-operators have to finish close to the same time. The folks with anything but a very small fraction of Brahman and the ones with predominantly continental don't work well. Since we practice MIG and have to move the cows by foot every couple of days, very calm, gentle, docile cattle are required. Any high headedness is culled. My grandkids and soon great grand kids do and will spend to much time out with the cows to put up with the crap from the typical (from our experience) limousin

dun

> the use of any dual purpose
> continental breed would be better,
> as I understood.

> They offer me 80 cows, Red
> Angus-Hereford, 4-5 yrs., beganing
> calving by Feb.15 and I can A.I.
> or bred them with some of my bulls
 
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A

Anonymous

Why many people talk crap about Limousin? I haven't had any problems with my Simmental-Limousin crosses, indeed if I buy the Red Angus-Herefords cows I won't hesitate to use my F1 Limousin-Simmental bulls, obviously Red Bulls.

> We usr Red Angus on Polled
> Herefords, Polled Herefords on red
> and Black Angus. Polled Hereford
> or Red Angus on F1 Red Angus
> Gelbvieh. We will be using
> Simmenthal on most of the Angus
> this year with the heifers bred
> back either Red Angus or Polled
> Hereford. We are looking for the
> maternal with some muscle from the
> continentals and high quality
> grade and maternal from the
> british with a moderate size. We
> market on a grid that pays us the
> premiums but all of the calves
> from the 20 some odd co-operators
> have to finish close to the same
> time. The folks with anything but
> a very small fraction of Brahman
> and the ones with predominantly
> continental don't work well. Since
> we practice MIG and have to move
> the cows by foot every couple of
> days, very calm, gentle, docile
> cattle are required. Any high
> headedness is culled. My grandkids
> and soon great grand kids do and
> will spend to much time out with
> the cows to put up with the crap
> from the typical (from our
> experience) limousin
> dun

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A

Anonymous

but Why I still get Blacks?

I have been using three 95% Black F1 Simmental-Nelores bulls with some of my Simmental cows, and the only color that I get is Red F2 Simmental-Nelores. Then when I cross the F2 heifers with Romagnolas (White) the male offsprings are mainly Black with Red neck & shoulders.

Alf you have been a good promoter of Blacks that you really are convincing me to buy or lease a Black Angus bull and cross him with some of my F1 Simm-Brah. cows, even though I'm more than a Redman maybe I will try a Black.

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A

Anonymous

Angus pure (Homozygous) Black have been used extensivly as a dehorner and to produce black animals on Red cattle. But the way it works You can have Homozygous blacks in Limo's,simm's,Braumveigh's,Gelviels, and even herefords.. there is a test to tell you that they are homozygous. So in theory there are many breeds that are out there other than Angus that will produce a black strain of cattle.. Of course I think their color came from Angus... alf

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A

Anonymous

Many half bloods of any Zebu breed cross to a any Red Breed are partly Black and in some cases almost all Black. For sure it should be something related with the genes.

In the case of my F1's Bulls, they are product of an A.I. program of Full Blood Nelore cows with Simmental (Dusty Dignified) French Full Blood semen.

These were cross to full blood Simmental cows giving F2 heifers that were Simmental color (Red & White)

The F2's heifers were cross by an Italian Full Blood Romagnola Bull so where in the cross is the black gene, it would be easier that they be Heterozygous.

Maybe we need a Biologist or a Vet. to give us an explanation of the genetical traits.

> Angus pure (Homozygous) Black have
> been used extensivly as a dehorner
> and to produce black animals on
> Red cattle. But the way it works
> You can have Homozygous blacks in
> Limo's,simm's,Braumveigh's,Gelviels,
> and even herefords.. there is a
> test to tell you that they are
> homozygous. So in theory there are
> many breeds that are out there
> other than Angus that will produce
> a black strain of cattle.. Of
> course I think their color came
> from Angus... alf

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A

Anonymous

For an animal to be red it must be homozygous red, black can be either heterozygous or homozygous black. The fun comes in when you start throwing in diluter genes from various breeds. Diluter and modifier genes can alter the expected color results. The same deal works with the african horn gene, throw that into the horn mix and you get unpredictable results because it isn't fully understood yet how the modifiers/diluters work in every case. In some of the less studied breeds they don't even know all of the diluter/modifier genes. It's possible that a diluter/modifier may be either dominant or recessive based on gender. If I remember correctly the scur gene is dominant in bulls but recessive in females.

dun

> Many half bloods of any Zebu breed
> cross to a any Red Breed are
> partly Black and in some cases
> almost all Black. For sure it
> should be something related with
> the genes.

> In the case of my F1's Bulls, they
> are product of an A.I. program of
> Full Blood Nelore cows with
> Simmental (Dusty Dignified) French
> Full Blood semen.

> These were cross to full blood
> Simmental cows giving F2 heifers
> that were Simmental color (Red
> & White)

> The F2's heifers were cross by an
> Italian Full Blood Romagnola Bull
> so where in the cross is the black
> gene, it would be easier that they
> be Heterozygous.

> Maybe we need a Biologist or a
> Vet. to give us an explanation of
> the genetical traits.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Dun you are usually right on but a small slip here. There is no way an animal can be homozygous red just as it can't be homozygous horned. Black or polled are dominant therefore can be homoygous. I am a Simmental and Red Angus breeder so I totally agree with your comment on the diluter gene. The spotter gene also makes life interesting. You are right on about the scurred gene being sex related as we get a lot more scurred bulls and very few on our females. We bred some reg. Red Angus cows to an ABS Black Simmental bull and had every bull calf come with scurrs and none on the females.

> For an animal to be red it must be
> homozygous red, black can be
> either heterozygous or homozygous
> black. The fun comes in when you
> start throwing in diluter genes
> from various breeds. Diluter and
> modifier genes can alter the
> expected color results. The same
> deal works with the african horn
> gene, throw that into the horn mix
> and you get unpredictable results
> because it isn't fully understood
> yet how the modifiers/diluters
> work in every case. In some of the
> less studied breeds they don't
> even know all of the
> diluter/modifier genes. It's
> possible that a diluter/modifier
> may be either dominant or
> recessive based on gender. If I
> remember correctly the scur gene
> is dominant in bulls but recessive
> in females.

> dun
 
OP
A

Anonymous

If it's red what would it be if not homozygous red, two red genes, no black. Same applies to horns.

dun

> Dun you are usually right on but a
> small slip here. There is no way
> an animal can be homozygous red
> just as it can't be homozygous
> horned. Black or polled are
> dominant therefore can be
> homoygous. I am a Simmental and
> Red Angus breeder so I totally
> agree with your comment on the
> diluter gene. The spotter gene
> also makes life interesting. You
> are right on about the scurred
> gene being sex related as we get a
> lot more scurred bulls and very
> few on our females. We bred some
> reg. Red Angus cows to an ABS
> Black Simmental bull and had every
> bull calf come with scurrs and
> none on the females.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

If paired alleles are the same the organism is said to be homozygous for that trait and if they are different the organism is heterozygous.

> Dun you are usually right on but a
> small slip here. There is no way
> an animal can be homozygous red
> just as it can't be homozygous
> horned. Black or polled are
> dominant therefore can be
> homoygous. I am a Simmental and
> Red Angus breeder so I totally
> agree with your comment on the
> diluter gene. The spotter gene
> also makes life interesting. You
> are right on about the scurred
> gene being sex related as we get a
> lot more scurred bulls and very
> few on our females. We bred some
> reg. Red Angus cows to an ABS
> Black Simmental bull and had every
> bull calf come with scurrs and
> none on the females.

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OP
A

Anonymous

My apologies to you. Brain freeze on my part. The word homozygous is often used in purebred circles to indicate a dominant factor (black or polled). If you pick up a breeder magazine or A.I. catalogue you often see advertized homozygous polled or black never homozygous horned or red due to the fact that black and polled are dominant in the first cross. After that its a new game. Don't forget that diluter gene though when breeding a black animal to a red. That red sometimes isn't as strong as you might think.

> If it's red what would it be if
> not homozygous red, two red genes,
> no black. Same applies to horns.

> dun
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Not a problem. The only reason they specify the homozygous polled or black is because if it's horned or red it has to be homozygous. And we know everybody is chasing black these days.

dun

> My apologies to you. Brain freeze
> on my part. The word homozygous is
> often used in purebred circles to
> indicate a dominant factor (black
> or polled). If you pick up a
> breeder magazine or A.I. catalogue
> you often see advertized
> homozygous polled or black never
> homozygous horned or red due to
> the fact that black and polled are
> dominant in the first cross. After
> that its a new game. Don't forget
> that diluter gene though when
> breeding a black animal to a red.
> That red sometimes isn't as strong
> as you might think.
 
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