FOCUS - on 'Milk' Selection

[MO_cows]

I think it is like most things, good in moderation. Nothing grows a calf as well as its mothers milk. But too much and soon you have a bag of bones with no muscle and a huge udder, aka the modern dairy cow. Here is the link to the 2012 across breed EPD adjustments. There is a 40 pound spread between the breeds. I was somewhat surprised to see that Brahman has a higher adjustment factor for milk than Simmental, I never realized they were so milky.

http://beefmagazine.com/selection-tools ... -epd-table

 

[krenwic]

Robert owning (the hip, good own) this topic as usual. I look at it this way. I don't care if a bull is +7 or +37 for milk as long as they breed back and bring in what I deem a quality or marketable calf. When I find the ones in my herd that do this, I study the bulls in their pedigree. More times than not they are littered with maternal bulls that are thought to be a thing of the past. Outliers used here, on average, aren't able to replicate themselves.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I find i get more cows of a type i like by looking at cows in a pedigree.

 

[thommoos]

I would like to understand how the MILk epd id derived, that sometimes help some of us self proclaimed novices learn.

Because currently I have a sire who has a -7 on milk, so what does that mean?

He most likely was raised on formula while his momma hung out at the bars!.............Seriously a -7 what freakin breed is he?

She a Beefmaster, History her sire averages ww of 572 EPD of 2 ,Milk -10. One of her daughters has averages ww of 580 epd 8, milk -2. You see my confusion she has averaged, it dont make sense. But with out accurate records from breeders how could EPD actually be beneficial. I own one of her daughters if she weans a 600 lb heifer @ 205, that will increase her EPD and Milk correct? more weight gain more milk EPD true?

 

[robert]

not that simple, depends on ratio's, contemporary groups, actual and adjusted weights. If the increase in weight is attributable to selection for growth and the average weaning ratio of daughters is less than 100 there's a good chance milk EPD will go down. Again, trying to apply a tool for evaluating population genetics to individual experiences will yield no valuable information. Most cows won't have enough progeny to change their milk epd significantly anyway, the biggest changes will come from changes in the sires of those dams. Most bulls won't sire enough registered progeny that result in enough registered production females to significantly change their own milk epds. In many cases because a sire has many progeny with a high accuracy is by no means a certainty that he will pass on the trait he supposedly 'accurate' for.

 

[Ned Jr.]

As has been said on here many times I think the amount of milk and growth a person can stand depends on the type of environment they're in and the forages available. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the main reason high milk is discussed so much now days is because of how far the Angus breed has taken it and now people are having a lot of problems with hard keeping open cows. Like all EPD's there's more to consider than just a number. Does the genetics tend to milk themselves to death or are they good at backing off milk production and holding condition in tough times? I'm sure a lot of people would think some of the bulls I'm currently using are too high on milk. Time will tell I guess but I hate seeing a fat cow bring in a thin calf and I'm also a long ways from having a bunch of thin open cows. Also, I really caution people that are getting so overly caught up in the low milk, small frame, extremely easy keeping fad. Over the years I think I've seen about as many open cows from being fat as from being thin. Everything needs to be balanced. Beef sells by the pound, feed prices are high and open cows don't make much money should all be considered.

 

[JHH]

As has been said on here many times I think the amount of milk and growth a person can stand depends on the type of environment they're in and the forages available. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the main reason high milk is discussed so much now days is because of how far the Angus breed has taken it and now people are having a lot of problems with hard keeping open cows. Like all EPD's there's more to consider than just a number. Does the genetics tend to milk themselves to death or are they good at backing off milk production and holding condition in tough times? I'm sure a lot of people would think some of the bulls I'm currently using are too high on milk. Time will tell I guess but I hate seeing a fat cow bring in a thin calf and I'm also a long ways from having a bunch of thin open cows. Also, I really caution people that are getting so overly caught up in the low milk, small frame, extremely easy keeping fad. Over the years I think I've seen about as many open cows from being fat as from being thin. Everything needs to be balanced. Beef sells by the pound, feed prices are high and open cows don't make much money should all be considered.

That statement is so true.

 

[aprille218]

With our black Angus all milk epds range from 23-30, but I don't really have a limit on the high end. It truly does depend on your situation though. We have enough grass to support the high milk numbers. Our commercial cows are smaller with high milk and wean a heavy calf fast and I expect the registered cows to do the same.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Many of the replies to this thread have focused on the direct results of Milk EPD's. My intention in introducing this subject was to stimulate the collective thinking past the immediate consummation and/or repercussions of "Single Trait Selection" protocols for Milk production. The majority of responses here seem to be concentrating of the ultimate goal of 'Milk Production' for maximum progeny growth. This is a praiseworthy objective and justifiable purpose - however most remarks have been overlooking the "side-effects", or "benefits", if you will, of Milk EPD's as merely a number to be manipulated and exploited as a "Single Trait" selection factor. As seemingly commendable as 'high milk production' may be perceived, along with the intense selection for femininity traits, this persistent tendency of higher and higher milk EPD's along with lower and lower calving ease characterisitcs may result in cows that lack muscle, capacity and reduced hind quarter structure - in other words - "Funnel-Butts!".

Another negative 'side-effect' of lower calving ease EPD's (culminating from higher Milk EPD's) may be increased calving difficulties in replacement heifers due to reduced pelvic area in later progeny. Ignoring the Balancing of mating protocols over time can be denounced as the determinate cause of loss of musculture of hind quarters, reduced bone density, and increased energy requirements leading to higher feed costs. Even during periods of non-lactation (not nursing a calf), energy demands remain higher for cows with increased milk potential. Give this some thought; selecting for above average milk EPD's may increase weaning weight, but you need to realize the increased nutrient demand of these animals - cows AND calves. Increasing milk without an increase in nutrients may ultimately result in decreased productivity.

robert and Ned, Jr. have seen beyond the immediate "milk factor" in their summations, and are looking at the potential "side-effects" that heifer milk production will promote in our BEEF cattle! The one factor that I persist in stressing with the breeders that I talk to is - BALANCE - BALANCE - BALANCE of ALL cogent EPD's and genomic-enhanced characteristics.

Particularly important in the consideration of EPD's and the balancing of all traits and characteristics in CROSS BREEDING Programs is utilizing the "Across Breed EPD Tables" - which change each and every year. In Cross Breeding protocols, BALANCE is absolutely imperative if one is to expect the maximum benefits of heterosis!

Thank you all for your contributions and input to this thread. I trust the information presented here will help us all to understand that "Multiple Trait Selection" protocols is the only way that continuing breeding improvement can be expected and realized in today's tighter management regimens. In the final analysis, PROFIT is the bottom line!+

- - - And - a Very Merry Christmas to ALl of You! :santa: :wave:

DOC HARRIS

 

[robert]

Doc Harris wrote "The majority of responses here seem to be concentrating of the ultimate goal of 'Milk Production' for maximum progeny growth. This is a praiseworthy objective and justifiable purpose - however most remarks have been overlooking the "side-effects", or "benefits", if you will, of Milk EPD's as merely a number to be manipulated and exploited as a "Single Trait" selection factor. As seemingly commendable as 'high milk production' may be perceived, along with the intense selection for femininity traits, this persistent tendency of higher and higher milk EPD's along with lower and lower calving ease characteristics may result in cows that lack muscle, capacity and reduced hind quarter structure"

IF selection based upon Milk EPD results in higher direct milk production should we be at all surprised if the result is dairy type? For the most part it seems selection for high growth epds has been followed by high milk epds, some have fallen out of bed when the rubber met the road (extremely sub par weaning performance of daughters progeny) but for the most part I still believe that the contribution of milk has been overstated. The way to determine true increase or decrease in milking ability of a sires daughters is though the accurate evaluation of body condition of dam and calf at weaning in addition to weight recording.

 

[SRBeef]

Doc Harris wrote "The majority of responses here seem to be concentrating of the ultimate goal of 'Milk Production' for maximum progeny growth. This is a praiseworthy objective and justifiable purpose - however most remarks have been overlooking the "side-effects", or "benefits", if you will, of Milk EPD's as merely a number to be manipulated and exploited as a "Single Trait" selection factor. As seemingly commendable as 'high milk production' may be perceived, along with the intense selection for femininity traits, this persistent tendency of higher and higher milk EPD's along with lower and lower calving ease characteristics may result in cows that lack muscle, capacity and reduced hind quarter structure"

IF selection based upon Milk EPD results in higher direct milk production should we be at all surprised if the result is dairy type? For the most part it seems selection for high growth epds has been followed by high milk epds, some have fallen out of bed when the rubber met the road (extremely sub par weaning performance of daughters progeny) but for the most part I still believe that the contribution of milk has been overstated. The way to determine true increase or decrease in milking ability of a sires daughters is though the accurate evaluation of body condition of dam and calf at weaning in addition to weight recording.

I believe this discussion is coming together. In my small cow/calf and freezer beef operation I have found that the ratio of 205 day adj calf weaning weight to cow weight at weaning is the key measurement of cow performance, at least in my situation.

The ratio of calf weight to cow weight at weaning seems like it would take into account both the milking ability and the growth ability. I want a herd of cows that every year wean a 205 day calf more than 50% of their own weight at weaning and does it on all grass with no creep. Creep masks many different things. Of course she has to be able to calve unassisted to get there also.

Here is a picture of my favorite cow taken the day after weaning, Oct 24th this year. This cow calves easily every year, rebreeds quickly, and has always weaned a calf in the 55% of her weight at weaning. And she stays in good condition and around 1250 lb doing it. I have no idea what her epds are as she is a commercial I purchased locally for $600. a few years ago. I do use good calving ease and good milk epd bulls from Jerry Huth.

So it is possible to have good milk without giving up condition, calving ease or growth.

I think if we selected cows and bulls for 205 day weaning weight as a percent of cow weight at weaning, with perhaps a 50% target, we might cover a couple bases at one time and not end up with a herd of dairy cows. jmh beginners opinion.

Jim

Here she is with this years calf three weeks before weaning

 

[houstoncutter]

I think a vital piece of information in Doc"s discussion has been left out...What are we raising? Terminal or seedstock replacement. I would take a whole lot less milk in cows if they are just raising terminal for me. I know that is not the case for some of you, for me though its simple. A 400 lb calf that gets to that weight quickly and gets shipped with his nuts and no shots. That way I can run more cows on less land and keep em in production a whole lot longer.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I think a vital piece of information in Doc"s discussion has been left out...What are we raising? Terminal or seedstock replacement. I would take a whole lot less milk in cows if they are just raising terminal for me. I know that is not the case for some of you, for me though its simple. A 400 lb calf that gets to that weight quickly and gets shipped with his nuts and no shots. That way I can run more cows on less land and keep em in production a whole lot longer.

houstoncutter-

With your specialized protocols - you are absolutely correct!

My original purpose with the first post on this thread was to stimulate the thinking of everyone on what potential negative genetic factors could be manifest by "blindly" focusing on Milk EPD's. Many University and MARC research has determined that over-emphasis on Milk and Low Calving Ease EPD's can result in undesirable characteristics in progeny such as lack of masculinity in bulls, reduced thickness in hind quarters, difficult calving due to reduced pelvic measurements in replacement progeny, and the dreaded "Funnel Butts" - which I abhore! Also, lower $EN values seem to be affected by these factors.

Terminal producers are less concerned with the genetic reproductive factors involved affecting seedstock producers. That is why registered producers in the '40's, '50's, '60's, and early '70's used high milking Nurse Cows (Holsteins, usually) to abtain maximum size on their sales stock. Then the worm turned, and Continental Breeds stirred up the genetic make up of beef mating protocols and - - the race was on!

I would like to encourage all CT Breed Board members to really give deep thought to what the possible negative effects can be by "over-doing" a Single Trait Selection factor - Milk EPD - NOT just "MILK" per se itself!

DOC HARRIS

 

[houstoncutter]

I agree completely Doc, the worst of the lot is show ring cattle, which heavily influence all cattle breeds. We get these bulls that look like big steers with nuts..... Give me the bulls with the nuts, guts, butts and huge massive crest. They ain't as pretty to the untrained eye, but they are the type of bull that will produce functional daughters