FOCUS - on 'Milk' Selection

[DOC HARRIS]

Just for fun and learning - Let's throw into a "classroom discussion" mix the Topic of "MILK". This seems to be a focal point of discussion at almost every meeting, seminar or 'corral-spitting' session in which breeders engage. How much "Milk" epd is not enough, enough, just right, too much, - - does it make any difference?? - and why. Try to give salient (which means "- - standing out from the rest") meanings in your remarks which focus on the real "standards" of Milk EPD's! You may be surprised at the real significance of "Balanced Milk EPD's".

For a serious BEEF CATTLE producer, this is a very serious subject analysis!

Have FUN!

DOC HARRIS

 

[cowmilker]

This is discrimination.

 

[robert]

My focus is on sustainable production which is defined by evaluation of the performance of calves combined with the maternal efficiency of the cow herd, defined primarily by fertility and reproduction but also includes the utility of their production (is it saleable/ marketable/ consistent with the goals of the herd?)

Through consistent selection pressure over time you allow nature to replicate what works and eliminate what doesn't.

There is way too much concern about paper values attributed to breeding stock which function perfectly well but are then construed to be too low or too high according to what is perceived to be a 'good' number.

If your cattle are working at a level where their utilization of the available resources is converted efficiently into saleable ( or retainable) production does it really matter what the milk EPD is? If more of the registered business focused on repeatable genetics instead of coffee shop bs bragging about the latest, greatest perhaps more real value would flow to the commercial sector?

 

[Isomade]

The amount of milk you want all depends on environment. For me ideal as far as Angus EPDs go I want a cow between 18-24. This gives me the best matched cow to my forage quality and allows me to maximize profits without having to feed myself into the poor house. As far as retained daughters go recent studies have indicated that a big change in Milk EPDs changes very little on a sires direct daughters. In other words if your cows milk way too much and you want their daughters to milk less the change doesn't happen that fast. If you put a 12 Milk EPD bull on a 30 EPD cow you will typically tell very little difference in the milking of the mother compared to the daughter.

 

[TexasBred]

Waiting and wondering where "milk components" come into play on this.

 

[thommoos]

I would like to understand how the MILk epd id derived, that sometimes help some of us self proclaimed novices learn.

Because currently I have a sire who has a -7 on milk, so what does that mean?

 

[cow pollinater]

I would like to understand how the MILk epd id derived, that sometimes help some of us self proclaimed novices learn.

Because currently I have a sire who has a -7 on milk, so what does that mean?

Milk EPD is how many pounds of gain a calf will get from the daughter's milk and mothering. Components could factor in as could really attentive mothers without tons of milk.

Personally I look for good milk balanced with a positive $EN. That way I'm getting good mommas that hold condition. It is a hard balance to find.

 

[robert]

Maternal milk EPD is that portion of a sires daughters production expressed in lbs of calf weaned that can not be attributed to growth, compared to the production of all other sires daughters. What this means in reality is that if a sires daughters consistently ratio above or below the average of their contemporaries beyond the predicted growth the milk EPD will move either up or down respectively.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

My focus is on sustainable production which is defined by evaluation of the performance of calves combined with the maternal efficiency of the cow herd, defined primarily by fertility and reproduction but also includes the utility of their production (is it saleable/ marketable/ consistent with the goals of the herd?)

Through consistent selection pressure over time you allow nature to replicate what works and eliminate what doesn't.

There is way too much concern about paper values attributed to breeding stock which function perfectly well but are then construed to be too low or too high according to what is perceived to be a 'good' number.

If your cattle are working at a level where their utilization of the available resources is converted efficiently into saleable ( or retainable) production does it really matter what the milk EPD is? If more of the registered business focused on repeatable genetics instead of coffee shop bs bragging about the latest, greatest perhaps more real value would flow to the commercial sector?

Good post Robert. I quit paying to much attention to paper some time back. I beleive what i see in the pasture more than whats printed on paper by folks that never seen the cow or the calf.

 

[TexasBred]

Good post Robert. I quit paying to much attention to paper some time back. I beleive what i see in the pasture more than whats printed on paper by folks that never seen the cow or the calf.

Hard to argue with results standing in front of you. ;-)

 

[JHH]

I know on hereford epd's it an average. I dont buy into the epd thing. I have two cows that are -1 on milk and wean the heavest calves every year. I would think by reporting the calves it would change but guess it may take more than 2 or three calves to change. Bulls number is still in the tank. ? Have to agree with TexasBred on this.

 

[cow pollinater]

Looks can be exceptionaly deceiving. I have a 1,400lb cow whose epd's say she should be very moderate. I have five daughters out of her by a few different bulls and not one of them is over 1,100. The daughters are consistantly the best cows that I have... Looking at her, I'd have culled her a long time ago if the paperwork didn't say something else and I'm glad it has.
I do absolutely agree that it has to match what you see in the pasture but I'll always give genetics a chance.

 

[robert]

The minute you apply population genetics evaluation to try and prove or disprove individual performance or production then the point and value of epds is moot.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

My focus is on sustainable production which is defined by evaluation of the performance of calves combined with the maternal efficiency of the cow herd, defined primarily by fertility and reproduction but also includes the utility of their production (is it saleable/ marketable/ consistent with the goals of the herd?)

Through consistent selection pressure over time you allow nature to replicate what works and eliminate what doesn't.

There is way too much concern about paper values attributed to breeding stock which function perfectly well but are then construed to be too low or too high according to what is perceived to be a 'good' number.

If your cattle are working at a level where their utilization of the available resources is converted efficiently into saleable ( or retainable) production does it really matter what the milk EPD is? If more of the registered business focused on repeatable genetics instead of coffee shop bs bragging about the latest, greatest perhaps more real value would flow to the commercial sector?

Good post Robert. I quit paying to much attention to paper some time back. I beleive what i see in the pasture more than whats printed on paper by folks that never seen the cow or the calf.

It surprises me that before EPD's that cattle were even able to existed. How in the world did Adam know which one would be the most productive with milk?!!!?!?!! :lol2:

 

[cow pollinater]

The minute you apply population genetics evaluation to try and prove or disprove individual performance or production then the point and value of epds is moot.

Expected PROGENY differance.

 

[robert]

My response was to your post about relating or matching epds to an individual. You think I don't know what EPD stands for?

 

[cow pollinater]

N

My response was to your post about relating or matching epds to an individual. You think I don't know what EPD stands for?

No, I'm saying not all cattle match what their genetics are suposed to do. The proof comes in the progeny, not(in this case) in the individual. If I matched up to my parental mating I'd be 6' and dark haired but I'm 5'9" and fairly blond... Turns out ther's more to genetic prediction than just what we see in the parents.

 

[3waycross]

I would like to understand how the MILk epd id derived, that sometimes help some of us self proclaimed novices learn.

Because currently I have a sire who has a -7 on milk, so what does that mean?

He most likely was raised on formula while his momma hung out at the bars!.............Seriously a -7 what freakin breed is he?

 

[3waycross]

On a more serious note, I just try to keep it between the white lines and avoid extremes, and fire and ice matings.

 

[SRBeef]

I only have a few registered Herefords, most of mine are commercial with no epds. The few registered cows I have come (as heifers) from herds with reputations for having complete data and now are bred with their 3rd calves for March calving.

I can see a difference in the milking between the registered cows which is in relation to the epd numbers. One cow with an 18 milk epd always seems to run out of milk before weaning and her calf is often near the lightest 205 day aww.

A cow with a milk epd in the low 20's is still milking at weaning near 205 days and has a heavier 205 day aww calf.

Now I have retained a heifer out of the 18 cow who has developed well after weaning. The calf's sire, Proficient N093, had a milk epd of 24. It will be interesting to see if the heifer milks more like the sire.

Looking back through the numbers, it does seem that the milk epd is more related to the dam than the sire as mentioned above in this thread.

Overall it looks to me that in my situation of wanting fast growth and early maturity for harvesting off of grazing corn at about 13 months, I need a MM epd in the low 20's. I don't want any more with mm in the teens.

My commercial cows I am building a herd from seem to have plenty of milk right up to weaning. My criteria of weaning a calf at 50% or more of the dam's weight at weaning probably screens for mm even with an epd.

My best homegrown cows so far have come from my T21 bull that had a mm epd of 28. My worst cattle purchase to date was a heifer that looked great but had a mm epd of 14.

From my limited experience I would say the mm epd is useful and seems to correlate with what i see in real life.

My small herd 2c.

Jim