Fescue

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Since the other topic got locked before I could reply let's continue here.
Fire Sweep Ranch you are correct. I have the same issue with the rotational grazing.. In 5 of my 11 paddocks the fescue is headed out. I'm going to bush hog those starting today.

Me too! This was me today.



And a pasture that I clipped also today. You could hardly see the cows before I clipped the seed heads off!



On the mineral note; you never know what your deficient of without detailed testing. We had liver biopsies done last fall after some specific issues. Our girls are selenium deficient. Even with good mineral, you can have holes.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per 50 pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per 50 pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.

Agreed! My gals are handling the heat well, and staying fat, ready for some very special semen to arrive Friday.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.

The cows that eat very little to no mineral don't care how much it cost or what the benefits are. At least with MultiMin 90 every cow for sure gets some mineral. We had a similar discussion to this about salt and all the answers to my questions were dodge balls. But do you think a cow can get to much mineral when it's offered free choice?

 

[Bright Raven]

I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.

The cows that eat very little to no mineral don't care how much it cost or what the benefits are. At least with MultiMin 90 every cow for sure gets some mineral. We had a similar discussion to this about salt and all the answers to my questions were dodge balls. But do you think a cow can get to much mineral when it's offered free choice?

Yes. I suspect some cows INTAKE exceeds her needs and she excretes the excess as waste! That is why Selenium levels in mineral is required to be low - I actually think that the government requirements dictate that it cannot be over a regulated level.

Mineral offered as free choice is a supplement. In an ideal environment, the cow would get all of her minerals in her forage. That does not happen. Producers offer minerals as a supplement to their existing diet.

If you push your cattle like we all do - require a calf every 365 dsys, require her to bred back in a short window, keep her pregnant and lactating, etc. there is going to be a need for mineral supplementation.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Most mineral excess is secreted through the urinary, digestive system, the lymphatic or the skin Vince.
Take too much vitmain c and you pee awful yellow type of thing

That's a fact.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Most mineral excess is secreted through the urinary, digestive system, the lymphatic or the skin Vince.
Take too much vitmain c and you pee awful yellow type of thing

True but how about the heavy metals? When you mix different things together there's no telling what the end result will be. MultiMin 90 administered in close proximity with some vaccines can render some vaccines usless. You never give MultiMin 90 and vaccines on the same side of the neck. I feel there's a lot of speculation involved in mineral use.

 

[sstterry]

I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?

Kenny,
Here is a good article from Beef Magazine that addresses this:

As grass dries down, mineral levels can shift dramatically. Grass also becomes higher in lignin as it dries down, and mineral availability decreases.

"It's also important to remember that a forage test showing you're meeting basic mineral recommendations does not mean you're meeting cattle mineral requirements," says Tjardes. "Recommendations and requirements are two different things – it's important to meet requirements."

https://www.beefmagazine.com/feed/4-cattle-mineral-misconceptions-debunked

 

[SmokinM]

Fescue toxicity is definitely linked to maturity and growth rate. The more vegetative it is the lower the level. Cattle really graze it better when it is clipped. I am not sure that a mineral combats fescue toxicity directly but I am a firm believer that they should have it and there is a huge difference in quality. Mine will eat it when they need it, some weeks can't keep the feeders full, sometimes a bag will last weeks. I think mostly it helps overall health so in turn helps with fescues effects. Generally a more expensive mineral is cheaper to feed by both consumption and results. Not saying $50 a bag is what it takes but low end doesn't pay for sure. I also have noticed that mineral needs vary a good bit from farm to farm and even fied to field. I am sure forage quality would play a huge part as well.

 

[kenny thomas]

Since the other topic got locked before I could reply let's continue here.
Fire Sweep Ranch you are correct. I have the same issue with the rotational grazing.. In 5 of my 11 paddocks the fescue is headed out. I'm going to bush hog those starting today.

Me too! This was me today.



And a pasture that I clipped also today. You could hardly see the cows before I clipped the seed heads off!



On the mineral note; you never know what your deficient of without detailed testing. We had liver biopsies done last fall after some specific issues. Our girls are selenium deficient. Even with good mineral, you can have holes.

Wish my land was that flat. Even my hayland is steep.

 

[kenny thomas]

I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?
[/quote

To determine what mineral or minerals your cow actually needs would be difficult. You would first have to remove all minerals and supplements you have available to your herd. Then after an appropriate hiatus, you would have to do liver biopsies.

If you had several hundred cows, that would be an economical plan. Then you could afford to have a custom mineral made just for your needs. On operations the size of yours and mine, it will not pencil out.

Nothing pencils out on my farm.
I ask VA Extension Service to assist me to develop a mineral for the area. I offered to do soil tests, forage tests, even bleed the cows to get blood levels. Never happened.

 

[Nesikep]

Here's Multimin 90 as listed on Valley vet
Multimin 90 is a supplemental source of zinc, manganese, selenium and copper for cattle. Each ml of Multimin 90 is a chelated source of 60 mg zinc, 10 mg manganese, 5 mg selenium and 15 mg copper. Multimin 90 should be administered to cattle by SQ injection. The recommended dosage is 1 ml per 100 lbs body weight for calves up to 1 year of age; 1 ml per 150 lbs for cattle 1-2 years of age; and 1 ml per 200 lbs for cattle over 2 years of age. Frequency of administration may vary to suit management program. Zinc, manganese, selenium and copper.

So doing some math, a 1000 lb cow needs 5 cc, thus gets 65mg of copper (I'm going to take copper as an example)
I like my mineral to be 2500mg/kg copper, 1kg is 35 oz, so a cow here should be getting 2500/35 * 4oz/day = 285mg per cow per day.
It's quite clear that Multimin 90 is no replacement for my mineral program.

I sometimes wonder if the additional price of all-chelated minerals is worth it, especially on the more common things.. Copper sulfate is quite bio-available, and it's cheap in sulfate form... same goes for Zinc, Magnesium and Cobalt. I'd certainly consider a chelated form of Selenium for example.. at 100mg/kg in the feed the additional price wouldn't be as noticed on a small quantity.


Ideally you should use a liver biopsy, but a blood test can do too.. I'd recommend pulling blood from a heavy milking cow just before bull turnout, that's her most stressed time and when you'll see the deficiencies clearly anyhow. I did it once, cost $100 and I'm glad I did!

 

[Bright Raven]

I would not pay a fleeting moment of consideration to substituting multimin for a free choice mineral program.

It cost me too much to not get every cow bred in a 2 month window. I breed about 20 cows a year. They are all bred AI. To get them to recover from partum, start cycling and conceive, takes a good mineral program. Copper, selenium, and the other minerals are essential for reproduction.

If I don't get every cow bred, I lose an opportunity to sell a breeding yearling bull or bred heifer.

Nesikep. You make a point on the chelated compounds. The mineral elements do not have to be chelated. Sulfates are readily bioavailable. You just have to be sure that they are in a compound that the cow can Uptake the mineral element.

 

[kenny thomas]

If you don't mind me asking what do you spend on mineral per year on 20 cows? I'm trying to get a handle on cost per cow? Your grazing looks about like mine except I stockpile for the winter and they graze most of the winter.
How much does their intake change in the winter?

 

[snoopdog]

I used to stress over it, no more.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I would not pay a fleeting moment of consideration to substituting multimin for a free choice mineral program.

It cost me too much to not get every cow bred in a 2 month window. I breed about 20 cows a year. They are all bred AI. To get them to recover from partum, start cycling and conceive, takes a good mineral program. Copper, selenium, and the other minerals are essential for reproduction.

If I don't get every cow bred, I lose an opportunity to sell a breeding yearling bull or bred heifer.

Nesikep. You make a point on the chelated compounds. The mineral elements do not have to be chelated. Sulfates are readily bioavailable. You just have to be sure that they are in a compound that the cow can Uptake the mineral element.

Some cattle don't need to be propped up with minerals and feed to deliver a calf every year. You don't know what your talking about and just repeating nonsense you hear. We use free choice minerals year round and MultiMin 90 in our management. But a lot of my neighbors don't and their cows produce a calf every 12 months. Culling can fix your reproductive problems, along with a host of other issues.
If MultiMin 90 can render some vaccines usless, why can't free choice minerals do the same?

 

[Bright Raven]

If you don't mind me asking what do you spend on mineral per year on 20 cows? I'm trying to get a handle on cost per cow? Your grazing looks about like mine except I stockpile for the winter and they graze most of the winter.
How much does their intake change in the winter?

I don't mind. It will take me some time to go through my 2018 taxes. I will post it when I do the math.

I have to say my grazing is excellent. I just walked out this evening with the dogs and looked at every cow. This may be the fattest I have ever had them. Even the ones that have a tendency to stay lean are getting fat. It is all grass fat. Right now, they are not consuming much mineral. In fact, the consumption is not noticeable. During the hay feeding season, they consume a considerable amount.

 

[Bright Raven]

I would not pay a fleeting moment of consideration to substituting multimin for a free choice mineral program.

It cost me too much to not get every cow bred in a 2 month window. I breed about 20 cows a year. They are all bred AI. To get them to recover from partum, start cycling and conceive, takes a good mineral program. Copper, selenium, and the other minerals are essential for reproduction.

If I don't get every cow bred, I lose an opportunity to sell a breeding yearling bull or bred heifer.

Nesikep. You make a point on the chelated compounds. The mineral elements do not have to be chelated. Sulfates are readily bioavailable. You just have to be sure that they are in a compound that the cow can Uptake the mineral element.

Some cattle don't need to be propped up with minerals and feed to deliver a calf every year. You don't know what your talking about and just repeating nonsense you hear. We use free choice minerals year round and MultiMin 90 in our management. But a lot of my neighbors don't and their cows produce a calf every 12 months. Culling can fix your reproductive problems, along with a host of other issues.
If MultiMin 90 can render some vaccines usless, why can't free choice minerals do the same?

Grit. It is total nonsense to suggest replacing a free choice mineral program by using an injectable mineral compound like multimin. I am not going to waste my time.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I would not pay a fleeting moment of consideration to substituting multimin for a free choice mineral program.

It cost me too much to not get every cow bred in a 2 month window. I breed about 20 cows a year. They are all bred AI. To get them to recover from partum, start cycling and conceive, takes a good mineral program. Copper, selenium, and the other minerals are essential for reproduction.

If I don't get every cow bred, I lose an opportunity to sell a breeding yearling bull or bred heifer.

Nesikep. You make a point on the chelated compounds. The mineral elements do not have to be chelated. Sulfates are readily bioavailable. You just have to be sure that they are in a compound that the cow can Uptake the mineral element.

Some cattle don't need to be propped up with minerals and feed to deliver a calf every year. You don't know what your talking about and just repeating nonsense you hear. We use free choice minerals year round and MultiMin 90 in our management. But a lot of my neighbors don't and their cows produce a calf every 12 months. Culling can fix your reproductive problems, along with a host of other issues.
If MultiMin 90 can render some vaccines usless, why can't free choice minerals do the same?

Grit. It is total nonsense to suggest replacing a free choice mineral program by using an injectable mineral compound like multimin. I am not going to waste my time.

How do you know your cows need free choice minerals and can't make it on a couple of MultiMin shots per year? Or maybe no mineral at all? Your speculating and spouting off like it's a fact. But a lot of folks have no mineral program and have no problems. Don't believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

 

[jehosofat]

Of course not, why entertain an opinion different from your own.

Cause he's got 20 cows and knows ever damm thing.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Of course not, why entertain an opinion different from your own.

I'm not going without free choice mineral, but I'm not going to swear or try and sell that everyone needs to feed mineral free choice to have healthy cows that breed back on time and deliver a live calf.