Fescue

[sim.-ang.king]

How many that say ya or nay to mineral have actually done a full spectrum soil test on all of there pastures and hay fields, along with a forage test on green grass and hay? We'll also throw a liver biopsy in there.

 

[kenny thomas]

How many that say ya or nay to mineral have actually done a full spectrum soil test on all of there pastures and hay fields, along with a forage test on green grass and hay? We'll also throw a liver biopsy in there.

I have done the soil test and forage samples but not the liver. But wasn't looking for the mineral content. I have those results from last year I will look back at.

 

[kenny thomas]

If you don't mind me asking what do you spend on mineral per year on 20 cows? I'm trying to get a handle on cost per cow? Your grazing looks about like mine except I stockpile for the winter and they graze most of the winter.
How much does their intake change in the winter?

Here it is Kenny. I purchased 7 fifty pound bags of VitaFerm Concept Aid during calendar year 2018. This information was based on receipts in my tax expenses for feed. I include minerals as feed when I complete Schedule F.

This does not include cost of loose white salt. In accordance with VitaFerm, I put out loose white salt with the Vitaferm.

Thus, I put out a total of 350 pounds of VitaFerm mineral in 2018.

I have 20 head of cows. They calve in September/October. That figures to 20 head of mature cows and 20 head of calves. I keep most of the calves for at least a year from birth. I sell breeding stock. The bulls are kept for a year and leave the farm after a BSE. The heifers stay approximately 18 months and are either retained or sold as breds.

This is figured as 20 head and each calf is figured as a half head. Since some of the calves do not go all the way to the end of the year due mainly to culling of breeding stock, I rounded down to 26 head.

Thus, 26 head and 350 pounds equals an intake of approximately 13 pounds of mineral per head per year. That is .57 ounces per day.

What is not in these figures is WASTE. If you consider waste of mineral, probably only about .5 ounces is actually consumed.

Total cost at 36/bag- $252

Thank you!. I spend much of that much and don't have nearly as good of mineral. Im late on some calving this year and tested for BVD but that's not the reason.
Was about to decide it was the really hot weather combined with the fescue. May still be that but this gives me something to consider.

 

[sstterry]

Thank you!. I spend much of that much and don't have nearly as good of mineral. Im late on some calving this year and tested for BVD but that's not the reason.
Was about to decide it was the really hot weather combined with the fescue. May still be that but this gives me something to consider.

Does Fescue affect fertility that much? We don't have much choice in these parts.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Thank you!. I spend much of that much and don't have nearly as good of mineral. Im late on some calving this year and tested for BVD but that's not the reason.
Was about to decide it was the really hot weather combined with the fescue. May still be that but this gives me something to consider.

Does Fescue affect fertility that much? We don't have much choice in these parts.

From everything I have researched and been told, YES, it does affect fertility. Hence the reason, management is key with the issue of fescue. While it's not always possible, keeping those pastures mowed low makes a difference in my opinion.

 

[Ebenezer]

Thank you!. I spend much of that much and don't have nearly as good of mineral. Im late on some calving this year and tested for BVD but that's not the reason.
Was about to decide it was the really hot weather combined with the fescue. May still be that but this gives me something to consider.

Does Fescue affect fertility that much? We don't have much choice in these parts.

Yes. You will get zero breed back on the wrong genetics. Had a neighbor who brought in quite a few high dollar and high performance mature cows from a nationally known herd and he ended up shooting and burying a good number due to loss of hooves and such.

You can protect your herd with fall calving but you see the full effects of non adapted cows with spring calving and breeding back now. Many split calving herds are because of cattle that fall out in the spring and are saved for the fall. Br probably has a fall breeding schedule to tie to show cattle but he likely have more trouble with breeding in a spring program. Anything I say is not a bashing of northern cattle genetics only. Cattle developed south of us on bermuda and bahia forages (no fescue) also may not transition well to the fescue belt. Some of you probably remember the Graham Angus herd. Folks who bought very many would tell of some that would not do well or even die. It's cheaper to find the genetics that work and use the fescue with wisdom (dilution, winter and summer annuals, minerals, ...).

We have never tested need for minerals but we learned by doing and slowly trying options and saw elimination of foot problems, higher rebreeding, better performance, .... The fescue we sampled came back at 93% endophyte infected.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ergot

 

[Ebenezer]

Ergot

Which is different from endophytes as far as I know. Ergot can be on different species of grain. The Salem witchcraft trials are one example on grain consumed by humans from history, I believe.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ergot

Which is different from endophytes as far as I know. Ergot can be on different species of grain. The Salem witchcraft trials are one example on grain consumed by humans from history, I believe.

Ergot is a broad term used for the spore pods. This is a picture I just pulled up. It may not be endophyte but endophyte looks just like that.

 

[Bright Raven]

Here is one that says fescue endophyte

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

This is MY picture I took and sent to the extension. Notice the seed heads look like mouse poop:



We are known to have the HOTTEST (infected) fescue around! The extension is right down the road from us, and they test their fescue often (for studies and such).

Ebenezer, funny you should mention the Graham Angus program. If it is the same, they sold out in the drought, I think 2012? We bought a cow calf pair online, because they were cheap. The cow made it ONE year before she shipped her for infertility, and the heifer calf on her side lasted just two calvings (she was a fescue cow for sure! Always in the pond, did not lose hair). We have a half blood cow, grandaughter from the orignal cow. She seems to be fine and throws an AI calf each fall. One of my best.

 

[Banjo]

Logically thinking.....healthy soil=healthy forage=healthy animals.
I think I am on the fence sometimes between feeding expensive minerals or not just worrying about it. I can see True Grits point of view. If we run our cattle just like the Buffalo herds of yesteryear we have to remember that most of our soils today are not anywhere close to the pristine condition that they were a few hundred years ago ...especially the great plains before it had seen a plow.
If the truth was known...probably not all my cattle get much mineral. I don't know for sure and how would you know unless you had a camera on the mineral feeder 24/7.

 

[Silver]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

 

[kenny thomas]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

So you feel you don't have the need to use mineral?
Looking at your cows and calves and weaning weights it's hard to argue. But maybe you could wean at 800lb if you used the good mineral. :hide:

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

So you feel you don't have the need to use mineral?
Looking at your cows and calves and weaning weights it's hard to argue. But maybe you could wean at 800lb if you used the good mineral. :hide:

According to BH if they ain't 900, they ain't nothin.

 

[Banjo]

I think it was Kit Pharo that said they try to force out 10 to 15% of their cow herd every year.....by subjecting them to tough conditions.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think it was Kit Pharo that said they try to force out 10 to 15% of their cow herd every year.....by subjecting them to tough conditions.

Why not do the same with children. I saw a story once where a guy put his toddler out in a snow storm unclothed to see if he could make it. I think the authorities stepped in upon the kid's behalf.

There is a herd near me, that for all practical purposes has to work overtime to stay alive, pasture as low as a putting green, thank goodness for the weeds and fence line brush to keep them going. They are alive, you can say that, but you probably wouldn't bid jack sh.t for them in an auction ring. Maybe to buy them and put them out of their misery. Poor things. I look away as I drive past them.

Something tells me that they are on the "survival of the fittest" plan, and minerals are an afterthought.

Is this guy producing superior genetics through calorie deprivation and a anti-mineral/vaccine plan? Or is he producing dog food?

 

[Silver]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

So you feel you don't have the need to use mineral?
Looking at your cows and calves and weaning weights it's hard to argue. But maybe you could wean at 800lb if you used the good mineral. :hide:

According to BH if they ain't 900, they ain't nothin.

If my pairs could spend their 205 days together on lush tame pasture that would certainly be achievable. I've not handicapped myself by breeding Angus so sky's the limit :lol:

 

[Bright Raven]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

That is a point worth expanding on. There are certainly environments where the soils and geological history provide all the essential nutrients. But they are rare indeed. Almost every environment is missing one or more essential elements for example , selenium occurs in extremely low levels here.

One advantage you have, it is like what I saw in Montana - you don't get the kind of extreme lush blossom of spring grasses we do in Kentucky. Where the grass is almost 90 % water. It is like "power washing" the GI tract. The weeks of lush grass and loose feces can decrease the uptake of minerals. Again, intake is what they consume. Uptake is what they absorb and get into the cellular level.

Since we are in an environment where there is low levels of Selenium, copper or magnesium to satisfy the essential needs of the biological functions, the cows health is going to be compromised and performance is going to suffer. In the case of some essential minerals like magnesium - they can die from grass tetany.

The Rocky Mountain area is a relatively young geological environment, rich in elements we have lost after 100s of millions of years of erosion and leaching.

This brings up a side note - regardless of culling there is no such thing as a mammalian biological unit that can carry on physiological functions without essential minerals. In example, there are no cows that have evolved a way to carry oxygen without iron. Culling cures some ills but it does not change the process of respiration and cellular function that is common to all life on the planet.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

That is a point worth expanding on. There are certainly environments where the soils and geological history provide all the essential nutrients. But they are rare indeed. Almost every environment is missing one or more essential elements for example , selenium occurs in extremely low levels here.

One advantage you have, it is like what I saw in Montana - you don't get the kind of extreme lush blossom of spring grasses we do in Kentucky. Where the grass is almost 90 % water. It is like "power washing" the GI tract. The weeks of lush grass and loose feces can decrease the uptake of minerals. Again, intake is what they consume. Uptake is what they absorb and get into the cellular level.

Since we are in an environment where there is low levels of Selenium, copper or magnesium to satisfy the essential needs of the biological functions, the cows health is going to be compromised and performance is going to suffer. In the case of some essential minerals like magnesium - they can die from grass tetany.

The Rocky Mountain area is a relatively young geological environment, rich in elements we have lost after 100s of millions of years of erosion and leaching.

You are better than Google!