Caustic Burno
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":265u34c2 said:
Another reason is you buy replacement F-1 heifers cows. You don't retain heifers to maximize hybred vigor.
Tons of info here
https://www.researchgate.net/scientific ... _D_G_Riley
Fastest Growing Breed Cross?
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Another reason is you buy replacement F-1 heifers cows. You don't retain heifers to maximize hybred vigor.
Tons of info here
https://www.researchgate.net/scientific ... _D_G_Riley
WalnutCrest":3bqzssud said:
https://futurebeef.com.au/knowledge-cen ... ef-cattle/
This article explains a three-breed rotational cross. The chart shows a 20% weight gain over breeding a bull and cow of the same breed together.
The three-breed cross seems to work best with more than 23% weight gain over straight breeding. It also seems pretty simple. Use cross-bred cows and a purebred bull with three unrelated breeds in the mix and you will get good growth.
ALACOWMAN":c0tecrnf said:
Just two bull breeds are needed if they want to produce their own F1 crosses and then breed them, correct? I suppose it is much more complicated on a large operation.
Or they could buy F1 replacement heifers and only need to keep one breed of bull.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
Actually it's more complicated for the smaller producers, For more Bulls.. I used Herefords , and Both red and black Simmental ...but only used one bull at a time.had to raise my own replacement though ,,if you want Bradford F1s here ....worked out pretty good...Bullitt":3jmcekvp said:
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":163096iw said:
Tried initially using multiple AI bulls on a put together herd to produce F1 replacements. Lots and lots of variability. The trailer improved the herd more than AI. :nod:
Went to F1 bulls to produce 1/4 blood replacements. Better, but still lots of variability.
Now looking to sorting into breeding herds and using full blood bulls for 3 sire rotation. Should work OK if you are already cross fenced for MIG, and don't have a hang up with every heifer being a F1.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
It's easy ...
AI for replacements in the three breed rotation ... fourth breed for terminal...
AI for replacements in the three breed rotation ... fourth breed for terminal...
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
[Breed Pimp Alert]
What I'm saying, for example only, is:
Step 1 -- Red Angus cows get AI'd to a Brahman bull with a Brahman bull as cleanup ... keep all your F1 heifers, maybe sell a nice Red Brangus bull or two, and the rest go to someone else.
Step 2 -- AI the same red Angus cows to the same or different Brahman bull for more F1s ... AI the red Brangus heifers to an Aubrac bull ... and run a black Angus bull on top as cleanup (mainly so it's super easy to tell which calves go to market) ... where all AI heifers are retained (except dinks and grumpy cattle) and all live cover calves are sold to other farms or to feed lots.
Step 3 -- AI the red Angus cows to a Brahman bull ... the F1s to and Aubrac bull to make F2s ... the F2s (Aubrac x Red Brangus) to Mashona ... and run a black bull on top as cleanup
Step 4 -- continue the same protocol as before ... except the F3s get AId back to a red Angus bull.
Continue ad infinitum.
This gives you:
Bow Taurus - British
X
Bos Indicus
X
Bos Taurus - Continental
X
Bos Sanga
= maximum hetetosis
And, if black calves are what you want for the sale barn, you shouldn't care what color your cows are as long as your terminal bulls are homo black.
Your goal should be to have the most efficient, fertile, healthy mama cows. After all, it's easy to paint calves black...
[/Breed Pump Alert]
And if you don't like those breeds, use others (Hereford, Nelore, Charolais and Tuli) ... wherever floats your boat.
If it were me, I think I'd use Murray Grey (British), Aubrac (Continental), Grey Brahman (Indicus) and Mashona (Sanga).
The light skin color will help with forage persistence. They're all hardy, long lived cattle. All but Brahman are known for good eating. The hetetosis should be compelling.
What I'm saying, for example only, is:
Step 1 -- Red Angus cows get AI'd to a Brahman bull with a Brahman bull as cleanup ... keep all your F1 heifers, maybe sell a nice Red Brangus bull or two, and the rest go to someone else.
Step 2 -- AI the same red Angus cows to the same or different Brahman bull for more F1s ... AI the red Brangus heifers to an Aubrac bull ... and run a black Angus bull on top as cleanup (mainly so it's super easy to tell which calves go to market) ... where all AI heifers are retained (except dinks and grumpy cattle) and all live cover calves are sold to other farms or to feed lots.
Step 3 -- AI the red Angus cows to a Brahman bull ... the F1s to and Aubrac bull to make F2s ... the F2s (Aubrac x Red Brangus) to Mashona ... and run a black bull on top as cleanup
Step 4 -- continue the same protocol as before ... except the F3s get AId back to a red Angus bull.
Continue ad infinitum.
This gives you:
Bow Taurus - British
X
Bos Indicus
X
Bos Taurus - Continental
X
Bos Sanga
= maximum hetetosis
And, if black calves are what you want for the sale barn, you shouldn't care what color your cows are as long as your terminal bulls are homo black.
Your goal should be to have the most efficient, fertile, healthy mama cows. After all, it's easy to paint calves black...
[/Breed Pump Alert]
And if you don't like those breeds, use others (Hereford, Nelore, Charolais and Tuli) ... wherever floats your boat.
If it were me, I think I'd use Murray Grey (British), Aubrac (Continental), Grey Brahman (Indicus) and Mashona (Sanga).
The light skin color will help with forage persistence. They're all hardy, long lived cattle. All but Brahman are known for good eating. The hetetosis should be compelling.
WalnutCrest":1f9ic31y said:
Yep, simple.
It seems that using cross-bred cows and breeding them to a purebred bull is easier and, according to that article I linked in this thread, a three-breed cross gives calves a little more growth than a three-way rotational cross.
A person can buy the Braford heifers/cows mentioned and own a continental breed of bull to breed them to. Each year some replacement Braford heifers would need to be purchased and older cows sold off.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
WalnutCrest":2vbr57wl said:
Lets have some more fun with math for those who raise their own replacements:
15% cow herd replacement rate, could be higher
33% of calves are select heifers, could be lower
.15/.33=45% of herd being bred AI for replacements, call it half
So we split the cow herd into two - - half AI bred for replacements with terminal clean up bull and half terminal bull bred. Is this what you propose?
R V
Well-known member
In this scenario, I don't think you breed to make your own replacements unless you have another set of purebred cows to make the F1's as your replacements would be a 3 way cross and the resultant calves would have less heterosis unless WalnutCrest is on to something. Am I missing something?
The Hereford X Angus that produces the Black Baldies seems to be a good cross. Why do two British breeds cross so well?
If Black Baldies are then bred to a continental European bull such as a Simmental, is that a good three-breed cross?
Also, if Black Baldies are bred to a homozygous black Simmental, would the calves be all black or would there still be white on the face?
If Black Baldies are then bred to a continental European bull such as a Simmental, is that a good three-breed cross?
Also, if Black Baldies are bred to a homozygous black Simmental, would the calves be all black or would there still be white on the face?
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
I have one left that is a blaze face,,out of 3 sired by a homozygous black simm.. Her dam was a brangus baldy...ill ""try"""for a pic..Bullitt":8bn2tos3 said:
ALACOWMAN":2r0hzj4o said:
Does the Hereford X Angus work well? I mean do you get good hybrid heterosis with that cross? I know Black Baldies are popular. Also, do you get good heterosis with the Hereford X Brangus?
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
side by side here,I'd go with the brangus-Hereford... Performance in my environment, heat tolerance and milking can be compromised,,,up north I'd go with angus/Hereford of course for obvious reasons.. Other than that,I'd take either.. Like both..but there's several other reasons why..heterosis depends a lot on the parents too.. But it won't do them any good in the wrong enviroment.. Bout be better off just using a straight bredBullitt":1od11wgp said:
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
yep, :nod: and a cross I'd like to dabble in.. But I hate chasing rabbits...gcreekrch":3tbnyp2g said:
gcreekrch":2tuffld4 said:
I was curious why crossing two British breeds works so well. I am guessing Angus and Hereford are not closely related.
I also understand the Brangus X Hereford would work better in the South.
It seems if you cross an Angus or Brangus with a Hereford and get a baldy or super baldy, and then cross those heifers with a continental breed like a black Simmental you would have mostly black cattle to satisfy the market and hopefully get the heterosis of a three-breed cross. It may not be as good as the Braford X continental cross (in the South) that was discussed, but I would guess it would be a pretty good cross. It may also be a cross that works well in more regions of the country.
