Express Angus Ranch Yukon, OK

[alexfarms]

T
I worked at Express Ranch. They do not fix their sales. You bid and get what you want, at the price you are willing to pay. Every auction we have at Rocking P is straight above the board and people always go away saying it was fixed. We just ignore them. Whereever high price cattle are sold, people are going to tell you the prices are fixed. A guy from Flemingburg was at the Express Auction this week and I know for a fact, he had to pay for the cattle he bought back to Kentucky. He said there may be illegal auctions but I know it was not at Express Ranch. If you get caught, you are going to prison. Why would you do that when you know your cattle will sell anyway?

That is all I have to say. You do what ever you want with this information.

Did you really expect him to say anything differently?? ;-)

You took the words right out of my mind, TexasBred. These guys protect themselves, anyone who doesn't know that is naïve. Auctions are schedule performances. A well organized auction will draw bidders in and keep them bidding. Bidders will participate under the sellers rules or they will not buy the animal up for bid.

 

[inyati13]

T
I worked at Express Ranch. They do not fix their sales. You bid and get what you want, at the price you are willing to pay. Every auction we have at Rocking P is straight above the board and people always go away saying it was fixed. We just ignore them. Whereever high price cattle are sold, people are going to tell you the prices are fixed. A guy from Flemingburg was at the Express Auction this week and I know for a fact, he had to pay for the cattle he bought back to Kentucky. He said there may be illegal auctions but I know it was not at Express Ranch. If you get caught, you are going to prison. Why would you do that when you know your cattle will sell anyway?

That is all I have to say. You do what ever you want with this information.

Did you really expect him to say anything differently?? ;-)

You took the words right out of my mind, TexasBred. These guys protect themselves, anyone who doesn't know that is naïve. Auctions are schedule performances. A well organized auction will draw bidders in and keep them bidding. Bidders will participate under the sellers rules or they will not buy the animal up for bid.

AlexFarms, I understand that and commend anyone for conducting a well organized auction designed to achieve the highest possible bids and resulting prices. But my question has been about how prevalent is the practice of fixing or rigging sales at the beginning of cattle auctions. Texasbred stated, "No it's more like a shell game. There was no market. The seller knew who his buyer was on the highest priced stuff before the sell started." I take that to mean the auction was not conducted within the rules established by the seller and that the original sales at the highest prices were "fixed". That is a criminal violation of intrastate/interstate commerce.

I got into this thread to provide the other side which is difficult because I am taking the side where I am providing commentary on what might not have happened. And this subject has been raised before without any challenge. I am simply taking the other side of the coin. Nothing personal. But it would be more credible if anyone could produce anything other than hearsay that this or any auction was fixed. And I am not talking about someone who buys back their own stock. I am talking about a corroboration of participants who plan out the fixing of auction prices in order to influence the results of an auction. Let me be clear, no where in this thread have I stated that it did not/does not occur. I am just curious about this activity.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Didn't say they wouldn't treat you right CF or that the cattle wasn't good. Bob Funk pays for a first class operation and has a first class operation. When the big boys promote it done with money.

Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth at all. Probably didn't come out right. Was just saying I'm not arguing with anyone about their knowledge or experience, was just giving mine.

 

[u4411clb]

Not trying to get off track of the subject here but is there anyone that could estimate or come up with an educated guess with the amount of money a Mitty in Focus or a New Design 878 would earn in their lifetime selling semen at aprox $20 - $25 a pop and also $20 bucks for the certificate?

 

[3waycross]

Not trying to get off track of the subject here but is there anyone that could estimate or come up with an educated guess with the amount of money a Mitty in Focus or a New Design 878 would earn in their lifetime selling semen at aprox $20 - $25 a pop and also $20 bucks for the certificate?

I assume that this post is in response to my statement about them NEVER being able to pay for themselves.

My answer would be they sold more high priced animals in one day that the Angus breed has seen altogether of the caliber of bull you just mentioned.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Inyati go to a express sale. See who buys the high selling lots. Track those cattle for a few years. Then go to those who bought the high selling lots sales and see who buys the high selling lots. Then track those cattle for a few years. You will see a patten. I could have bought a cow a few years ago that I saw sell as a young cow for almost $20000,00, she sold for $1200.00 at that sale.

 

[u4411clb]

Not trying to get off track of the subject here but is there anyone that could estimate or come up with an educated guess with the amount of money a Mitty in Focus or a New Design 878 would earn in their lifetime selling semen at aprox $20 - $25 a pop and also $20 bucks for the certificate?

I assume that this post is in response to my statement about them NEVER being able to pay for themselves.

My answer would be they sold more high priced animals in one day that the Angus breed has seen altogether of the caliber of bull you just mentioned.

I was more trying to figure out how much money does the rare top quality Bull earn for the owner. It is hard for me to even put forward a good guess. Thought some of the purebred guys could give a guess.

 

[DLD]

The #1 sire for number of calves registered in 2012 is SAV Final Answer 0035 with 6615. At $35 per certificate, that's $231,525 and at $30 for semen that's $198,450 in semen - just for those cows that settled and had calves that got registered... You could easily say 30% more semen was used (probably more) but there's another 1985 units of semen at $30 there's another $59,550. So that makes a total of $489,525 for one year. Final Answer is 13 years old, so even considering that most other years he didn't have that many calves - say an average of 2205 (33% of 2012) calves per year for 10 years there's $1,615,432.50 in semen and certificate sales alone. I truly believe that's a pretty conservative estimate.

So it's wrong to believe that there isn't truly huge amounts of real money in the registered Angus business. They aren't the industry leaders in promotion for nothing - not only have they succeeded in turning most of the cows in the U.S. black with their CAB program, they've created more of a market for premier genetics than any other breed. I've never been able to find the figures, but I'd bet that the percentage of AI sired calves registered is close to double that of any other beef breed. Add to that the money spent on the show ring, and you should start to realize how much money is actually being spent in the breed. Regardless of whether we see it as practical or reasonable, it's happening.

Does that mean that I believe all the sale ring prices to be honest? No, but I do believe that most of them are. If it was all show and no money, the show couldn't keep going forever...

 

[inyati13]

The #1 sire for number of calves registered in 2012 is SAV Final Answer 0035 with 6615. At $35 per certificate, that's $231,525 and at $30 for semen that's $198,450 in semen - just for those cows that settled and had calves that got registered... You could easily say 30% more semen was used (probably more) but there's another 1985 units of semen at $30 there's another $59,550. So that makes a total of $489,525 for one year. Final Answer is 13 years old, so even considering that most other years he didn't have that many calves - say an average of 2205 (33% of 2012) calves per year for 10 years there's $1,615,432.50 in semen and certificate sales alone. I truly believe that's a pretty conservative estimate.

So it's wrong to believe that there isn't truly huge amounts of real money in the registered Angus business. They aren't the industry leaders in promotion for nothing - not only have they succeeded in turning most of the cows in the U.S. black with their CAB program, they've created more of a market for premier genetics than any other breed. I've never been able to find the figures, but I'd bet that the percentage of AI sired calves registered is close to double that of any other beef breed. Add to that the money spent on the show ring, and you should start to realize how much money is actually being spent in the breed. Regardless of whether we see it as practical or reasonable, it's happening.

Does that mean that I believe all the sale ring prices to be honest? No, but I do believe that most of them are. If it was all show and no money, the show couldn't keep going forever...

If it was all show and no money, the show couldn't keep going forever... That statement is clever, congratulations for the way you phased that. I appreciate you coming to this thread with those numbers. It would be interesting if any of the mainstream semen companies ever release the total net sales on individual bulls.

 

[u4411clb]

The #1 sire for number of calves registered in 2012 is SAV Final Answer 0035 with 6615. At $35 per certificate, that's $231,525 and at $30 for semen that's $198,450 in semen - just for those cows that settled and had calves that got registered... You could easily say 30% more semen was used (probably more) but there's another 1985 units of semen at $30 there's another $59,550. So that makes a total of $489,525 for one year. Final Answer is 13 years old, so even considering that most other years he didn't have that many calves - say an average of 2205 (33% of 2012) calves per year for 10 years there's $1,615,432.50 in semen and certificate sales alone. I truly believe that's a pretty conservative estimate.

So it's wrong to believe that there isn't truly huge amounts of real money in the registered Angus business. They aren't the industry leaders in promotion for nothing - not only have they succeeded in turning most of the cows in the U.S. black with their CAB program, they've created more of a market for premier genetics than any other breed. I've never been able to find the figures, but I'd bet that the percentage of AI sired calves registered is close to double that of any other beef breed. Add to that the money spent on the show ring, and you should start to realize how much money is actually being spent in the breed. Regardless of whether we see it as practical or reasonable, it's happening.

Does that mean that I believe all the sale ring prices to be honest? No, but I do believe that most of them are. If it was all show and no money, the show couldn't keep going forever...

Thanks that is what I was curious to get an educated guess at and your numbers sound reasonable to me if not on the low side. I would think that 70% success rate would be pretty high for any bull that is being used AI for one.

 

[DLD]

Thanks that is what I was curious to get an educated guess at and your numbers sound reasonable to me if not on the low side. I would think that 70% success rate would be pretty high for any bull that is being used AI for one.

I really think when you add in real world conception rates and calves that don't get registered, you might actually sell double the amount of semen as calves registered. I just pulled 30% more out of the air, 'cause it's still impressive figures, and nobody can argue that there's not at least that much more sold.

Thanks, inyati.

 

[Cattleman200]

I have a bit of a dispute as to Express selling "carrier females" in that recent sale. Could they have said "possible carriers" maybe ? The test for DD has just opened up for the public. Most of the first animals tested were bull chosen from studs as I understand it. The time frame would not have allowed Express or anyone to physically test any females before their sale. If you go to the link on the AAA they show that NO DATA for FEMALES so I have to believe there have been no females tested. They also show NO DATA on females under the tested DD free animals. If the link below wont work look for animals tested and it has the option for bulls/cows.

http://www.angus.org/Pub/DefectsAnmList ... vIg3UTE%3d


Circle H Ranch

 

[inyati13]

I have a bit of a dispute as to Express selling "carrier females" in that recent sale. Could they have said "possible carriers" maybe ? The test for DD has just opened up for the public. Most of the first animals tested were bull chosed from studs as I understand it. The time frame would not have allowed Express or anyone to physically test any females before their sale. If you go to the link on the AAA they show that NO DATA for FEMALES so I have to believe there have been no females tested. They also show NO DATA on females under the tested DD free animals. If the link below wont work look for animals tested and it has the option for bulls/cows.

http://www.angus.org/Pub/DefectsAnmList ... vIg3UTE%3d


Circle H Ranch

No Sir. At the introduction they stated that all cattle on the ranch over 10 days old had been tested for DD. so the animals sold as "DDC" were confirmed carriers.

 

[Cattleman200]

I found the supplement sheet for the sale. It appears that they were all tested just like you are saying. I missed the sale, was in the hayfield. I guess the AAA is dragging their feet as usual on posting results. Been over a week now and not one female posted yet that has been tested.




Circle H Ranch

 

[bse]

I think they were tested by DR Beaver whever he is. Express could have had a little jump on the rest of the people i dont know. They were gonna test the ones in stud first then go to the ones in sales and go from there. I dont think Express would have to turn in the info to AAA since its done by Dr Beaver but now that Zoetis has it at more than twice the cost they will probably have to turn in all info from this point on.

 

[Huntbooboo]

maybe they should try the originals? everything looks the same now, similar births growth and phenotype! I have used some of these new black sires euro and Angus, still got the best results as far as growth and vigor from the fullbloods.

 

[3waycross]

maybe they should try the originals? everything looks the same now, similar births growth and phenotype! I have used some of these new black sires euro and Angus, still got the best results as far as growth and vigor from the fullbloods.

Fullbloods.....what breed?

 

[polledbull]

I had the priviledge to sit beside Gerald Calahaun ( the GM of Express )at a dispersale sale for most of a day , we had the opportunity to talk agood bit , he told me that they had sold over $60 million in seedstock in the last 20 years at Express . I am a registered breeder and I do know of a case where they had a larger breeder spend alot of money at one of there sales and left with alot of cattle for big prices , (that folks thought were fixed ), and when he never paid they sent thier trucks and the law to the state where the cattle were with a warrant to reposes thier cattle , so some of the prices are pay back deals , but with ranches like Express , SAV and Wulf ,ect... alot of those cattle bring big money and they are paid for when you load them. And another thing , I learned while talking to Mr Calahaun , I quiclky learned he is a first class gentlman and a top cowman . I was fortunate to get to site by him

 

[inyati13]

I had the priviledge to sit beside Gerald Calahaun ( the GM of Express )at a dispersale sale for most of a day , we had the opportunity to talk agood bit , he told me that they had sold over $60 million in seedstock in the last 20 years at Express . I am a registered breeder and I do know of a case where they had a larger breeder spend alot of money at one of there sales and left with alot of cattle for big prices , (that folks thought were fixed ), and when he never paid they sent thier trucks and the law to the state where the cattle were with a warrant to reposes thier cattle , so some of the prices are pay back deals , but with ranches like Express , SAV and Wulf ,ect... alot of those cattle bring big money and they are paid for when you load them. And another thing , I learned while talking to Mr Calahaun , I quiclky learned he is a first class gentlman and a top cowman . I was fortunate to get to site by him

Thank you. That is good information. I like a skeptic but human nature is to exaggerate the good, bad and the ugly. I know Keith Phillip, he worked for Express. I am glad I got some confirmation of what he told me, thanks. There is a deal in our county on a much smaller scale. It was just a sale between individuals. A guy bought 20 cows, took posession of them and then didn't pay. I did not talk directly to the original owner but the matter has led to death threats being made. I have no idea about the details. One of the bigger cattlemen in the county told me about it. The guy telling me the story said he hopes that never happens to him because he hoped he could get through life without killing another man.