EPDs - Just Out

[SBMF 2015]

@SBMF 2015 you are soooo right. EPD's, pelvic measurements, SC - all TOOLS to help you make decisions.
Researchers came up with "pelvic measurements" will make you increase your cow size. Well, like you said - IF you pick only your largest PM cattle, yes you will probably incr your cow size. But, IF you use it as a TOOL to cull out potential problems, it works fine.
BTW - I have NEVER had a PM on any of my cattle - other than bulls in a bull test.
The PM on bulls, like everything else, is heritable.

I have gained a lot of my knowledge from the school of hard knocks.
Bought a red Angus bull represented as a low birth hfr bull. He was anything but. Pulled most of his calves. Some of his daughters turned out really well and we saved them. Pulled calves out of them. Started pelv measuring and decided to measure the RA bull too. And a yearlings blk bull for comparison. The yearlings blk bull out measured the 3yr old red bull! The RA bull instantly became a terminal cross. He was big on the outside but small inside and pasted that on to his calves.

 

[rocfarm]

Once you get a bit of a reputation of having quality cattle and bulls you will be surprised at the people who will seek you out to buy your older bulls.
I only use my own younger bulls but my neighbour buys bulls from me then after he uses them for 4 or 5 years there are always people that are lined up for them.

Ken

Can't speak to you experience. But the research I've done says bulls on average last to about 7 years old. And my current herd is less than ten head. Again, money doesn't pan out from an exposure to profit perspectiv.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Can't speak to you experience. But the research I've done says bulls on average last to about 7 years old. And my current herd is less than ten head. Again, money doesn't pan out from an exposure to profit perspectiv.

That is correct - but not in your own herd, unless you keep none of the offspring.

 

[rocfarm]

rocfarm, I don't understand your thinking on this one. One of your earlier posts said you were retaining heifers, why would you buy subpar bulls to make replacement heifers? I'm a small operator as well and while I don't spend 5k on a bull I still want one that does his job well. With the prices paid for good calves I find I am further ahead to sell the heifers and buy replacements. I can buy my replacements for 1-200 hundred more than I sell a heifer for. Sounds like a better option for you might be to calve out of the "prime" time so you could find a neighbor with a bull that's done for the season and rent him.

Because I'm cash poor and don't do this full time. I don't want to take a big risk on cattle. So I bought 8 head, including the bull, for around $5100. They were other people's culls during the summer drought. Now I have 9 head as one calved. And, next October I have a chance at 6 calves on the ground. Total weight wise, my herd weighs about 2500lbs more than when I got it. So I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. Have spent about 550$ on feed, too, including this winter, so not too bad.

My goal is 10 to 13 cows and a bull that average 8 to 11 calves per year. And my original point was that, for a small herd like mine, a $5,000 bull would almost never make sense. Kind of like moving a small herd every day. Cost per head is too high. But if you were moving 300 head every day, the cost per head is way cheaper.

I like that I don't have much at risk, and I prefer it that way now. And, you are right. If good replacement cows are close to heifer prices, that's not a bad idea to buy replacements using heifer income. But I think I want to try it this way first, simply because I'm having fun.

Will look into the rental aspect.

 

[rocfarm]

Read that second sentence and think on it before typing. Like I said, it's not about you. You have made your bed and you will learn the hard way like the rest of us.

Does my insistence on learning the hard way mean I'm officially a part of the group? I think I'm ok with that, then! I will do my darndest to post what really happens. That way you can at least say I told ya so.

 

[rocfarm]

EPDs are a TOOL. They are not God's gift to the cattlemen. You need to use your eyes and the ACTUAL BW, WW, YW. And, you need to take some of that info with a grain of salt. All can be munipulated with FEED.
A small newbie might not need to spend $5000 on a bull, but you sure don't want to buy a CHEAP bull.
I sell bull CALVES for $1850. My buyers raise them out thru the winter, and have a nice yearling to breed their cows in the spring/summer. I have a pretty decent herd, so a bull out of my herd is one to build a new herd by. There are a number of ways to not have to spend a fortune on a bull - without buying junk. Like others have mentioned, you can buy an older bull someone is done with.
You are saying you want to BUILD your herd. Well, you don't want to BUILD starting out with junk.
I totally understand you can't justify an expensive bull right now. But, there is a balance.

rocfarm - he is not name calling. He is stating his opinion as facts. Your opinions and some of ours don't agree. "Newbies" read some stuff and take it as gospel if it's written "on a cattle board". "WE" (the not newbies) like to offer what we think is better management in the long run.
You don't like our advice and that is fine. You don't have to listen to it. Most newbies want to try it their way and that is fine. It's your time and money. But, this is not a private conversation. LOTS of people that are not typing on here are READING this looking for guidance. You have to see the whole picture.

Thanks for the comments. Not upset.

But, I would also like to point out that, for some of us, starting out with junk is exactly what we have to do in many of life's situations. Don't have a choice in many of those matters. But it's how creative we can get with the junk and what we can transform it into in the long run that shows the worth of our hands' work.

 

[rocfarm]

I have gained a lot of my knowledge from the school of hard knocks.
Bought a red Angus bull represented as a low birth hfr bull. He was anything but. Pulled most of his calves. Some of his daughters turned out really well and we saved them. Pulled calves out of them. Started pelv measuring and decided to measure the RA bull too. And a yearlings blk bull for comparison. The yearlings blk bull out measured the 3yr old red bull! The RA bull instantly became a terminal cross. He was big on the outside but small inside and pasted that on to his calves.

So how do you measure a bull's pelvis? Same as with heifers?

Never mind, sorry. Found it on the internet.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Because I'm cash poor and don't do this full time. I don't want to take a big risk on cattle. So I bought 8 head, including the bull, for around $5100. They were other people's culls during the summer drought. Now I have 9 head as one calved. And, next October I have a chance at 6 calves on the ground. Total weight wise, my herd weighs about 2500lbs more than when I got it. So I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. Have spent about 550$ on feed, too, including this winter, so not too bad.

My goal is 10 to 13 cows and a bull that average 8 to 11 calves per year. And my original point was that, for a small herd like mine, a $5,000 bull would almost never make sense. Kind of like moving a small herd every day. Cost per head is too high. But if you were moving 300 head every day, the cost per head is way cheaper.

I like that I don't have much at risk, and I prefer it that way now. And, you are right. If good replacement cows are close to heifer prices, that's not a bad idea to buy replacements using heifer income. But I think I want to try it this way first, simply because I'm having fun.

Will look into the rental aspect.

Rocfarm> You can do better. < (Read that again and remember it) By your own numbers you are willing to settle for an 80% calf crop.
Grow your herd from calves born in the 1st cycle of the calving period. Try to maintain at least 2 or 3 cow families which means as time
goes by and a family eliminates itself for lack of fertility (not calving in the 1st 30) you may need to bring in some new blood,
Do this and and you should be able to add 15% + or - to your gross. Good Luck

 

[rocfarm]

Rocfarm> You can do better. < (Read that again and remember it) By your own numbers you are willing to settle for an 80% calf crop.
Grow your herd from calves born in the 1st cycle of the calving period. Try to maintain at least 2 or 3 cow families which means as time
goes by and a family eliminates itself for lack of fertility (not calving in the 1st 30) you may need to bring in some new blood,
Do this and and you should be able to add 15% + or - to your gross. Good Luck

Of course hoping to do better. But want to star off with industry averages. Will be happy to get my money back. Will explore bumping productivity after I get through the first few years of newbie mistakes.

''Thanks for the encouragemen.

 

[Travlr]

My goal is 10 to 13 cows and a bull that average 8 to 11 calves per year.

Not to nit pick as much as clarify... any goal with cows is to have 10 to 13 cows that average one calf per cow. 8 calves from 10 cows is a losing season.

 

[J+ Cattle]

Thanks for the comments. Not upset.

But, I would also like to point out that, for some of us, starting out with junk is exactly what we have to do in many of life's situations. Don't have a choice in many of those matters. But it's how creative we can get with the junk and what we can transform it into in the long run that shows the worth of our hands' work.

If you're starting off with junk and are intent on transform it into something better why don't you use AI rather than a subpar bull. A sorry bull on junk cows isn't going to transform much of anything.

junk cows x subpar bull = subpar junk calves

 

[rocfarm]

Didn't

If you're starting off with junk and are intent on transform it into something better why don't you use AI rather than a subpar bull. A sorry bull on junk cows isn't going to transform much of anything.

junk cows x subpar bull = subpar junk calves

say the bull was sorry. Just said it was cheap. Don't have time to coordinate the AI stuff right now. Family obligations.

 

[rocfarm]

Not to nit pick as much as clarify... any goal with cows is to have 10 to 13 cows that average one calf per cow. 8 calves from 10 cows is a losing season.

Research I saw said 93% calves raised was outstanding…

 

[Travlr]

Research I saw said 93% calves raised was outstanding…

Yeah? I always thought it was around 87% as an average so yeah, 93% might be outstanding. Just saying that the goal is 100%. Anything less is... less.
I've seen some really outstanding cheap bulls and used some myself. I've also seen people pay through the nose for bulls that never performed well. It's really a crap shoot, IMO. I like to know the EPDs but if a bull doesn't look like the calves I want to get the EPDs don't mean a damn thing. The recent fascination with EPDs over conformation have resulted in a lot of big bellied, light muscled, effeminate bulls that throw calves just like them. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a lot of them are getting "premiums" because they're black.

 

[Brute 23]

Most people Google info then come here for real world experience or how to apply that info in the real world. @rocfarm came here to teach all of use what he learned on Google.

 

[kenny thomas]

Kind of like moving a small herd every day. Cost per head is too high. But if you were moving 300 head every day, the cost per head is way cheaper.

So how do you figure cost per head being too high? Normally it's only time and the utilization of the forage being much better makes it worth while. Unless your getting paid for something that this time is taking away from this payment, it's like this" what's time to a hog".

 

[SBMF 2015]

So how do you measure a bull's pelvis? Same as with heifers?

Never mind, sorry. Found it on the internet.

Yes, same as a hfr. Up the butt.
Hey no worries, no dumb questions except the ones not asked.
Had a young vet out to measure hfrs once, before I bought a pelvomiter. She was young and had apparently never measured hfrs before. Set on proving herself, she lubed up and stepped behind the first hfr. A lot of thrashing around from the hfr and she was taking longer than I expected. I asked if there was a problem. Her response was that "No, it's just really hard to get in there when they're not dilated." I very tack fully suggested that she aim a little higher and we got along fine the rest of the day.
Sometimes even the professionals just don't know.

 

[gcreekrch]

Less might pay if you have a really small operation.

It seemed like those with less than 20 head shouldn't hardly ever spend on a more expensive bull with good EPDs. Small herds simply can't provide the number of exposures one needs to get the money back.

So for me, I'm going to stay cheap for now. Bought a medium-framed untested yearling bull to keep on my cows for two breeding seasons. I'm hoping to get some good heifers out of him.

Since I plan on trying to retain some heifers, I'm keeping a little red angus bull out of a medium-framed red angus dam that I bought bred at auction. He looks decent and has had good growth so far and he had a lower birth weight, so I figure I can use him until I get my heifers bred. He was a lucky break. His mom cost me 450 because she was limping, but it just turned out she's skittish. She healed up and dropped this little red angus. So far, he's pretty calm. Anyway, I won't keep any heifers out of him because I don't want crazy in my herd for the long term and his frame is a bit too small.

After I have around 10 to 12 cows, I hope to get a decent herd bull and maybe make enough money each year to just buy a few replacement cows when I sell my calves. At that point I'll look for 4-year-olds, probably.

But going to stay cheap for now.

Of course, if my current bull throws dinks, I'll have to change my plans. Won't keep his heifers if they don't look like they have any quality.

BTW, the man in the video says that to use birth weights to determine if a bull is calving ease is misguided. Says the CED EPDs are better. I suspect he's right, but, like I said, for me cheaper with a bit risk is better at this point. It'll be interesting to see how taking perhaps a few too many risks turns out for me.

I just read this again…….
I attend most sales at the sale yard we use. Your first paragraph is explains why small operators for the most part are responsible for the junk cattle with no vaccination program, horns, one nut bulls if they bothered to try and sell 20 calves in 19 lots at the sale. These cattle are usually at the bottom of the market and the owners blame the buyers and the sale barn for the prices they receive.
Good cattle pay in so many ways…….. but you keep bringing that junk, I make a lot of money cleaning up your mess.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Now, don't go rogue on him. He is just starting out. Wants beef cattle and spending what he can.
WE know taking short cuts, trying "new" ideas, cutting expenses, generally ends up costing more money than spending money.
The reason people are harping on your statement about moving cattle is because whether you have 5 cows or 500, if you give them just a big enough pasture to graze, that will last them 1 to 5 days, you will get a whole lot more nutrition in your cattle, and the pastures will grow back faster and keep providing the cattle with lush, growing plants.
It does not take but a few minutes to move your herd. They catch on quick. Open a gate and call them.
Leave the cattle on the same ground, and they will quickly eat the good stuff.....over and over, killing off the best, until all they have is junk to eat.
You should NEVER let them graze the same spot more than 7 days because they will start eating the regrowth.
When you put them on a small area, they eat EVERYTHING, but no regrowth.
The paddock needs to rest for at least 30 days around here. This may drastically be different in different areas.

 

[rocfarm]

Yeah? I always thought it was around 87% as an average so yeah, 93% might be outstanding. Just saying that the goal is 100%. Anything less is... less.
I've seen some really outstanding cheap bulls and used some myself. I've also seen people pay through the nose for bulls that never performed well. It's really a crap shoot, IMO. I like to know the EPDs but if a bull doesn't look like the calves I want to get the EPDs don't mean a damn thing. The recent fascination with EPDs over conformation have resulted in a lot of big bellied, light muscled, effeminate bulls that throw calves just like them. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a lot of them are getting "premiums" because they're black.

When I worked out my plan, I figured on losing a calf and a first calf heifer/cow each year. Still think I can make money.

The way I think I can get to '100%' calves is to start buying some bred cows each year that will calve in my calving window (after I start making money, that is), then maybe selling any that aren't bred when I preg check and/or also culling any that don't drop a calf on time right before winter. Then I could always be raising about 10 calves to sell around July.

Also thought about buying some $400 extra low-maintenance type corriente cows for 'insurance' this coming July. Would have about 13 head of cows, with some nice beef cattle, but also enough head to ensure 10 calves to raise. Would turn the bull in around December. Would preg check in July. If all 13 were bred, I'd let them calve in October, then sell any that didn't have a live calf or were late. If I had more than 10 calves on the ground, I would sell the cows with dinks and keep the 10 best looking.

But for now, I'm tapped out.