EPDs - Just Out

[rocfarm]

Depends on each breed and which breed they are being crossed with ie Breed average for Angus is 26 milk and Hereford 15 according to angus association information.

There' a slide in the video that shows how to baseline the averages across breeds so that comparisons across breeds can be made, btw.

 

[rocfarm]

Yes. EPDs are still based on human recordings. I think they are far more important to seedstock producers than average cattlemen like me.

Don't really trust that there's not incentive to fudge them, myself. Looking forwards to genomic tests that confirm/narrow the variability of the epds…

 

[gcreekrch]

You are correct. I've also seen our lbs per day go up. #3/day is my low cut off.

That bring up an interesting deal too. We are hitting the target weight for our market sooner. Use to it was not uncommon to leave a calf to 7 or 8 mo.

Every thing we do chain reacts through the whole operation. Its not just a bull. Its not just hay. Its not just grazing a little too long. The right move can change the whole operation, as can the wrong.

2.25 is as good as our grass will allow. The fact that our calves will do 4+ lbs per day in the lot is what sells them so well.

 

[rocfarm]

2.25 is as good as our grass will allow. The fact that our calves will do 4+ lbs per day in the lot is what sells them so well.

So how do you calculate what the grass I'll allow? Not heard that one before.

 

[gcreekrch]

Average weaning weight minus birth weight divided by days of age.

 

[rocfarm]

I think I see what you mean. Guess it's a range based on yearly weather and type of forage present along with soil fertility. I'd think that range is a bit more narrow the further East you go, though. Droughty central Texas can have a lot of variation on weaning weights, I think.

 

[gcreekrch]

I think I see what you mean. Guess it's a range based on yearly weather and type of forage present along with soil fertility. I'd think that range is a bit more narrow the further East you go, though. Droughty central Texas can have a lot of variation on weaning weights, I think.

Our grass is very soft. We have sold mature cows weighing 1180 average on 300 head and seen the new owner's culls come back through the ring 3 or 4 years later weighing 1350 plus.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Don't really trust that there's not incentive to fudge them, myself. Looking forwards to genomic tests that confirm/narrow the variability of the epds…

BINGO NAILED IT!
Like everything politics play a role in EPDs
That's why I tend to stay away from big names in the seed stock business. The medium sized ones still have to raise good stock and don't have the power or money to sku the numbers.

 

[TCRanch]

If the seedstock producer you deal with is honest, he can guide you to cow families that are lower bw for several generations. The operation we have dealt with for 30 years calves heifers no bigger than ours and knows what we want. Every four years we retire the old bulls and he sends us more.

My goal is minimum pelvic measurement of 150 at 11 months, so my heifers should (theoretically) easily spit out a 70-75+ calf unassisted at 24 months. Last time I had to pull a calf was probably 6 years ago and it was a malpresentation (leg back, kind of sideways, named the calf Twister).

I'm extremely fortunate that my breeder has taken the time to go through all my previous bulls registrations/EPD's (even from prior breeders) and knows my herd. When I need a new bull, I just call him in advance and specify whether it's for my heifers. Literally sight unseen. Last one, I didn't even know his EPD's until I received the registration.

 

[Brute 23]

I can see how it might work, but I'd point out that you have a neighbor that pays a high price for what you'd probably only be able to sell for 1800 to 2000 (if that) at the sale barn. Also, the need to change out your bull more often if you retain heifers makes that math not work so well. And it's well known that bulls get hurt or die, so just one bust of a 5000 bull will set you back a lot assuming you buy another 5000 dollar bull to replace it.

Business logic says there's a certain operational size you'd need to reach 'escape velocity' or reasonable easy profitability for an operation. It's really hard for herds of less than 20 to sustain that profitability based on these high bull costs. I'm in the cam that would say take less risk and more % returns, even it it means less overall dollar return than those higher risk/higher capital investment methods.


I liked how the professor said that the bull that will make money for me might not be the one that will make money for you on your operation. He even said it's a hard pill for many to swallow to accept that the cheaper bull that doesn't have the best epds is actually the logical choice to make for one's operation.

You make my head hurt. If it wasn't for the fact I don't want other newbies to buy in to your excuses I wouldn't bother.

All I will say is people who don't fert test bulls before buying them should not be lecturing others on how to buy bulls. There is no cow calf operation that risk is worth the reward.

 

[rocfarm]

You make my head hurt. If it wasn't for the fact I don't want other newbies to buy in to your excuses I wouldn't bother.

All I will say is people who don't fert test bulls before buying them should not be lecturing others on how to buy bulls. There is no cow calf operation that risk is worth the reward.

Well there comes that aggressiveness again.

We'll see how it turns out. But I'd point out that perhaps ranting at someone is not going to convince them.

 

[GoWyo]

My goal is minimum pelvic measurement of 150 at 11 months, so my heifers should (theoretically) easily spit out a 70-75+ calf unassisted at 24 months. Last time I had to pull a calf was probably 6 years ago and it was a malpresentation (leg back, kind of sideways, named the calf Twister).

I'm extremely fortunate that my breeder has taken the time to go through all my previous bulls registrations/EPD's (even from prior breeders) and knows my herd. When I need a new bull, I just call him in advance and specify whether it's for my heifers. Literally sight unseen. Last one, I didn't even know his EPD's until I received the registration.

I have discussed the heifer pelvic measurement issue with a couple of producers who said selecting on pelvic size led to bigger and bigger cows over a few years. Have you had that problem?

 

[gcreekrch]

I have discussed the heifer pelvic measurement issue with a couple of producers who said selecting on pelvic size led to bigger and bigger cows over a few years. Have you had that problem?

Good question.

 

[wbvs58]

I can see how it might work, but I'd point out that you have a neighbor that pays a high price for what you'd probably only be able to sell for 1800 to 2000 (if that) at the sale barn. Also, the need to change out your bull more often if you retain heifers makes that math not work so well. And it's well known that bulls get hurt or die, so just one bust of a 5000 bull will set you back a lot assuming you buy another 5000 dollar bull to replace it.

Business logic says there's a certain operational size you'd need to reach 'escape velocity' or reasonable easy profitability for an operation. It's really hard for herds of less than 20 to sustain that profitability based on these high bull costs. I'm in the cam that would say take less risk and more % returns, even it it means less overall dollar return than those higher risk/higher capital investment methods.


I liked how the professor said that the bull that will make money for me might not be the one that will make money for you on your operation. He even said it's a hard pill for many to swallow to accept that the cheaper bull that doesn't have the best epds is actually the logical choice to make for one's operation.

Once you get a bit of a reputation of having quality cattle and bulls you will be surprised at the people who will seek you out to buy your older bulls.
I only use my own younger bulls but my neighbour buys bulls from me then after he uses them for 4 or 5 years there are always people that are lined up for them.

Ken

 

[TCRanch]

I have discussed the heifer pelvic measurement issue with a couple of producers who said selecting on pelvic size led to bigger and bigger cows over a few years. Have you had that problem?

I'm not sure how to answer that. We started out with 33 bred coming 3-year-olds and most of them were BIG - as in, averaging 1600 lbs., a few clocked in at 2000+ when we sold them, and Steamroller tipped the scales at 2300 when she was heavy bred. Selective culling (and selling due to age) over the years has reduced the average weight to around 1400 lbs., though I do have a few that are a solid 1800. I still have 2 cows that were from our first group of retained heifers, both will be 13 years old in a couple weeks and I have retained all their heifers.

Is the reduction in size due to selective management & bulls? Quality of forage? We haven't been able to burn the pastures in years, due to a lot of factors. I dunno.

My primary purpose in pelvic measuring the heifers is a live, unassisted calf.

 

[uplandnut]

rocfarm, I don't understand your thinking on this one. One of your earlier posts said you were retaining heifers, why would you buy subpar bulls to make replacement heifers? I'm a small operator as well and while I don't spend 5k on a bull I still want one that does his job well. With the prices paid for good calves I find I am further ahead to sell the heifers and buy replacements. I can buy my replacements for 1-200 hundred more than I sell a heifer for. Sounds like a better option for you might be to calve out of the "prime" time so you could find a neighbor with a bull that's done for the season and rent him.

 

[Brute 23]

Well there comes that aggressiveness again.

We'll see how it turns out. But I'd point out that perhaps ranting at someone is not going to convince them.

Read that second sentence and think on it before typing. Like I said, it's not about you. You have made your bed and you will learn the hard way like the rest of us.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Less might pay if you have a really small operation.

It seemed like those with less than 20 head shouldn't hardly ever spend on a more expensive bull with good EPDs. Small herds simply can't provide the number of exposures one needs to get the money back.

So for me, I'm going to stay cheap for now. Bought a medium-framed untested yearling bull to keep on my cows for two breeding seasons. I'm hoping to get some good heifers out of him.

EPDs are a TOOL. They are not God's gift to the cattlemen. You need to use your eyes and the ACTUAL BW, WW, YW. And, you need to take some of that info with a grain of salt. All can be munipulated with FEED.
A small newbie might not need to spend $5000 on a bull, but you sure don't want to buy a CHEAP bull.
I sell bull CALVES for $1850. My buyers raise them out thru the winter, and have a nice yearling to breed their cows in the spring/summer. I have a pretty decent herd, so a bull out of my herd is one to build a new herd by. There are a number of ways to not have to spend a fortune on a bull - without buying junk. Like others have mentioned, you can buy an older bull someone is done with.
You are saying you want to BUILD your herd. Well, you don't want to BUILD starting out with junk.
I totally understand you can't justify an expensive bull right now. But, there is a balance.

You make my head hurt. If it wasn't for the fact I don't want other newbies to buy in to your excuses I wouldn't bother.

All I will say is people who don't fert test bulls before buying them should not be lecturing others on how to buy bulls. There is no cow calf operation that risk is worth the reward.

rocfarm - he is not name calling. He is stating his opinion as facts. Your opinions and some of ours don't agree. "Newbies" read some stuff and take it as gospel if it's written "on a cattle board". "WE" (the not newbies) like to offer what we think is better management in the long run.
You don't like our advice and that is fine. You don't have to listen to it. Most newbies want to try it their way and that is fine. It's your time and money. But, this is not a private conversation. LOTS of people that are not typing on here are READING this looking for guidance. You have to see the whole picture.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I have discussed the heifer pelvic measurement issue with a couple of producers who said selecting on pelvic size led to bigger and bigger cows over a few years. Have you had that problem?

Pelvic measuring is just a tool. How you use it determines your results.
The rule of thumb is 140sqcm at 14mos. TCRanch has big cows. That work in her enviroment. I use the 140@14 as a base line. I measure at 11-12mos old. I still expect them to measure 140. I usually drop the bottom 5% after measuring.
Now if you only kept the top 20% every year you would eventually increase the frame size of your cow herd. Bigger on the inside generally = bigger on the outside, but big on the outside doesn't always= big on the inside.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@SBMF 2015 you are soooo right. EPD's, pelvic measurements, SC - all TOOLS to help you make decisions.
Researchers came up with "pelvic measurements" will make you increase your cow size. Well, like you said - IF you pick only your largest PM cattle, yes you will probably incr your cow size. But, IF you use it as a TOOL to cull out potential problems, it works fine.
BTW - I have NEVER had a PM on any of my cattle - other than bulls in a bull test.
The PM on bulls, like everything else, is heritable.