EPD's I think

[treytex]

Can a person tell if a bull has desirable traits such as low birth weight by looking at the bull or is always necessary to have a pedigree.

 

[Jake]

looking at them doesn't do squat for calving... you can make a guess but a guess is just that... a GUESS, a pedigree, his actualy birthweight and EPDs are needed.

 

[TheBullLady]

Well, at some point in time there were no EPD's.. so a producer would guess at the calving ease of the bull based on his progeny (if available to see) and what his mature weight and dimensions were. (Large head, shoulder, etc. ) Obviously not an exact science.

 

[1848]

Treytex,

There are some wise ol breeders out there that really can. There is also literature that supports the idea that physical characteristics in animals (both male and female) can determine if calves will come easy or not. Of course the bull is not always the reason for calving problems. It also depends on how you manage your cows, and the conditions they are being subject too. Many old timers will use the rule of thumb which is: look at the birth weight of the bull and it "should be" close to what you can expect from him on average. Remember EPD's are only as good as the herd they are reported in. An amimal may carry a 2.0 BW EPD, but the average calves in the herd he was reported in may be 90lbs, so a 2.0 may not necessarily reflect a 75lb calf. Look at both yours and the bull sellers programs when determining how you think a sire will perform.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Remember EPD's are only as good as the herd they are reported in. An amimal may carry a 2.0 BW EPD, but the average calves in the herd he was reported in may be 90lbs, so a 2.0 may not necessarily reflect a 75lb calf. Look at both yours and the bull sellers programs when determining how you think a sire will perform.

Sorry, but I disagree with this statement. EPD's are a national figure, representing stats turned in all over the nation. Even if that bull hasn't had offspring, his EPD's are based on stats for all his parentage, not JUST the herd he was born on. His herd is just one drop in a huge bucket.
Now his "in herd" ratio is strickly based on the herd he was born in. Like if he had a 106 BW index, that meant his BW was 6% better (smaller) than the herd average. So if the herd average was 80# (100% index) than his BW was less that 80#.
EPD's and his actual BW are TOOLS to support his ability to have low birth weights. BUT, you still have to LOOK at the bull. No matter what the stats say about the bull, if he has large shoulders and/or bigger than normal head, I would never consider him an easy calver. No matter what the BW is, if they come out like a box, they don't fit through the hole very well. You need wedge shaped sires. Huge back end, tapering to a small front end.
Just my thoughts on this.
Oops, my computer just went "off line" - I may have this posted twice, sorry.

 

[denoginnizer]

How can we tell if we are looking at papers that reflect the breed average versus papers that reflect a breeders herd average?

 

[denoginnizer]

My understanding is that the owner of the bull is the one responsible for collecting the numbers.
If his/her scales arent working correctly or if he/she decides he needs to make a little extra money this year he/she might fudge on the numbers.
Just because it is written down on a piece of paper doesnt mean its true.
I am thinking it would be best to find bull sellers that have been known to be honest ,with reliable information in the past. Someone may get mad at me for pointing this out but I am telling it like I see it. I think most people involved in the cattle business are honest but you always have some shady/incompetent dealers out there.

 

[dun]

I believe that Jeeane has things just a bit backwards for BW ratio. A higher number in everything else is a positive, within reason of course. But a higher BW ration indicates a higher BW, i.e. heavier.
As to the questions about some breeders cheating, oops, accidentally recording erroneous weiths, etc. If all of the EPD figures were derived from one herd that would be a significant problem. Typically EPDs are calculated from multiple herds. When EBVs were replaced by EPDs I was told that one of the things that affected the accuracy was the number of herds and the number of animals. That was a good many years ago and since all breed associations do them differently that may no longer be true.

dun

 

[9 ER]

Did I read somewhere that if you are cross breeding then you can throw epd's out the window?

 

[dun]

Did I read somewhere that if you are cross breeding then you can throw epd's out the window?

If you're straightbreeding you can throw them out the window. That's alwasy an option with any tool. Some of the breed associations say the crossbreed EPDs are useless, but I think those are the associations that didn't/aren't participating in creating them. It may be a SFP, they're useless because they didn;t participate or they didn;t participate because they're useless.

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Different breed associations may do indexes differently, but I just double checked my in herd Simmental indexes (which I don't pay much attention to "in herd indexes"). Anyway, Simmental BW indexes over 100 are lower birth weights, and under 100 is heavier BW.
On the question about how do you know if they are EPD or indexes, if you were shown registration papers, they will say the words/letters:
EPD or Index. If it says EPD than you know it is not just a "in herd" figure.
Now, I'm not saying that "in herd" ratios don't mean anything, they do - within that particular herd. But it does not mean anything between your herd & my herd. Does that make sense??
Herd A may have an average BW of 65# (100 index) and my herd may have an average BW of 85# (100 index) So my cows/bull that has a 110 index on BW means they had a BW less than my herd average of 85#. But a 110 index for Herd A means it was less than 65# in that herd.

 

[treytex]

The ranch that I do day help for uses Low weight angus bulls with their hereford heifers. It is rare that they ever have to pull a calf, at least I never see or hear about it. This also is good because they produce black baldies which is the market favorite I guess.

 

[dun]

Different breed associations may do indexes differently, but I just double checked my in herd Simmental indexes (which I don't pay much attention to "in herd indexes"). Anyway, Simmental BW indexes over 100 are lower birth weights, and under 100 is heavier BW.
On the question about how do you know if they are EPD or indexes, if you were shown registration papers, they will say the words/letters:
EPD or Index. If it says EPD than you know it is not just a "in herd" figure.
Now, I'm not saying that "in herd" ratios don't mean anything, they do - within that particular herd. But it does not mean anything between your herd & my herd. Does that make sense??
Herd A may have an average BW of 65# (100 index) and my herd may have an average BW of 85# (100 index) So my cows/bull that has a 110 index on BW means they had a BW less than my herd average of 85#. But a 110 index for Herd A means it was less than 65# in that herd.

I've only paid attention to Red Angus and even then I've going by surmise. When the BW is in the 80s it's in the 100 or over range, when it's in the 70s it's generally in the 90 range.
I guess the bottom line is to check with a particular breed association

dun

 

[dun]

Calculating BW ratio from the Red Angus Association.

Adjusted Birth Weight Ratio

Adjusted Birth Weight Ratio =
(Calf Adj. Birth Wt. ÷ Avg. Adj. Birth Wt. of contemp. group) x 100

I'm no good with math, but it looks like a lower weight is a lower ratio

dun

 

[houstoncutter]

Bottom line, do your homework. If a bulls actual birthweight is somewhat larger than you want, leave him alone, no matter what the BW epd might say. You can find find bloodlines in most every breed that will have a small birthweight. The trick is, to find the ones that will have a decent WW to go with it.

 

[1848]

Seems as though this has opened up quite a discussion. It is true that EPD's reflect data turned in from herds throughout the nation for most breed associations, but it "is" dependent on accurate information being submitted. For example, in the AHA calves which are not reported in a contemporary group are not included in the genetic analysis. Neither are twins, or calves past a certain percentage ratio above or below the "norm" in a given trait. This is one reason the AHA has turned to whole herd reporting. This eliminates people only reporting select animals from their herds, which was allowing them to play with EPD values for the benefit of their own herd, but it does not eliminate false reporting. Whole herd reporting has only been in effect for several years so, much of the data is based on "select" animals reported on. EPD values have and still are increasing with each year. (isn't that a coincidence since better EPD's will capture the market for breeders) The AHA also combined the Polled and Horned Association's genetic databases which further adjusted EPD values. We saw alot of "timely" dispersals and reorganizations when these things occurred.. Then they would turn right around and get back in the business with a clean slate! I personally know that an EPD value can change substantially from one animal to the next even if they are full siblings all because they performed differently in their contemporary group. Upon registration, a calfs BW EPD can be 2 points off what the average of the two parents is (basically the parents EPD's combined, divided by two), just based upon the BW which was reported on the calf. Moreover, registered stock will still get values based on it's parents even if they did not perfrom in a contemprary group, so their EPD's have never been proven. Yes, having EPD's can be a guide, tool, estimation, or even a projection of performance, but if an animals previous three generations have always had data reported in the same herd, and no performance data was collected prior to those generations (plus there was no outside influence), then the 90lb average calf theory is valid. I have had 0 milk EPD cows got to 13 milk in a few years! It should be noted that the AHA requires that: If a bull calfs BW is unknown or not given, then it should be listed as 90lbs. Assuming that is an average that AHA has come up with then we cannot assume a 2.0 National EPD means 75lbs. The AHA also uses ratios above 100% at birth to mean a heavier calf. Apparently Simmental is different. I use EPD's as only "part" of my evaluation when it comes to breedstock, knowing that they are not always accurate. I work the animal in a contemporary group so I know what I am really dealing with. Physical evaluation of animals in contemporary groups, and a program collecting accurate (and honest) performance data are your surest means of getting what you want. Many a buyer has bought the "Paper Tiger".

 

[Frankie]

Can a person tell if a bull has desirable traits such as low birth weight by looking at the bull or is always necessary to have a pedigree.

Some people claim they can tell an easy calving bull by looking at him. Maybe that's true, but the Beef Improvement Federation (BIF), most ag Universities, and several breed associations all say EPDs are the most accurate indicator of a bull's breeding ability available to cattlemen. So I use them and they work.

 

[Frankie]

My understanding is that the owner of the bull is the one responsible for collecting the numbers.
If his/her scales arent working correctly or if he/she decides he needs to make a little extra money this year he/she might fudge on the numbers.
Just because it is written down on a piece of paper doesnt mean its true.
I am thinking it would be best to find bull sellers that have been known to be honest ,with reliable information in the past. Someone may get mad at me for pointing this out but I am telling it like I see it. I think most people involved in the cattle business are honest but you always have some shady/incompetent dealers out there.

You should pay attention to the accuracy figure that goes along with the EPD. That indicates how much information on the animal's family was used to produce the EPD; a higher number indicates more information is available on ancestors. As a seedstock producer, I generally use bulls that have accuracies above .85. The Angus Association holds the accuracy on young bulls at .85 until the data reported to the Association is coming from a wide variety of breeders, not just the owner of the bull. Especially if the bull is AI sired, his own performance is (as Jeanne said) just a drop in the bucket toward his own EPD. The difference in the performance of two brothers shouldn't affect their EPDs early in life. I know of some flush brothers whose EPDs did change quite a bit as they got older. But we all know human brothers who are radically different in height, weight, etc. Being full (or flush) sibs doesn't mean they are identical.

 

[denoginnizer]

To get a .85 how many calves must be recorded from the bull?

 

[1848]

Some calves already have a percentage of accuracy along with their initial EPD values. This is carried over from having very accurate percentages from one or both parents, or previous animals in their line. Some calves initial EPD's will come with a "P" in the Percent accurate box. This means that these calves EPD's are only "Predicted" and they will have to build from nothing. The bulls that already have a percentage rating at birth do not have to have as many calves to get to .85%. It might only takes 150 calves. On the other hand, a bull that does not have an initial percentage (just a "P"), or has parents which don't have high accuracies, are not active (dead, etc.), and/or are contributing to to data themselves, may have to have over 300 or more calves.