E85 and Bio-Diesel

[aplusmnt]

Saw a news bit other night that the new Consumer Report Magazine was about to come out and they did a test with a Suv (think it was a Yukon) On Regular gas in town it got 9 mpg I think, and 7 mpg on E85, Then on Highway it was like 19 with Unleaded and 11 with E85.

Did not realize you got such bad gas mileage with E85, wonder if this will put a damper on the push for E85?

Wondering if Bio-Diesel hurt Mileage as bad as 85% Ethenol in regular gas cars does?

 

[marimus]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

 

[Campground Cattle]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

Good post as most Americans can't see the whitewash job we are getting on ethanol. Ethanol will be more costly for the consumer and make us more dependant on foreign oil not less.
This has pork barrel all over it.
It is all about btu's an ethanol doesn't cut it. Unless you are a corn farmer thats the only American that benefits.

 

[somn]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

If a person pays 28% less for a product in most cases they get 28% less product in return. That would explain the price difference between the 2 products. They both still overcharge the consumer. The only choice we have as consumers is who do we want to give our money to Big oil companies or Big ethanol companies.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Ethanol keeps more of the money(increased jobs if nothing else) here in the USA-- that alone is worth the government(ie tax payers) supporting it.

And it is being used to make closed circle systems that are beneficial to the country on ALL levels. Cattle make ****-- **** makes energy- to turn corn into biodiesel- by product is fed back to cattle. And the whole process creates jobs- that spiral to create more jobs.
More closed systems will be developed as the market stabalizes so that less and less iol will be needed in the system. But there HAS to be a cash flow from somewhere to get the ball rolling.

Oil is a dead end road- with no up sides.
Ethanol( and energy in general) is the new entrepeneurial(sp) wave-- and they ALWAYS improove the economy.

Also harmful emmisions are less with Ethanol - and thats worth supporting.

And why shouldn't the corn farmer make good money????
They are the backbone of the country- they thrive/ the country thrives.
I'd like to see them doing it through growing a commodity the creates more cash flow down the pipes(through futher processing) than by dirrect government subsidies..

 

[certherfbeef]

Karen, They just broke ground for an ethonol plant here locally. While it will add 100 or so jobs and probably make profit for the crop guys to plant more corn...the cattleman are concerned about the corn prices. The fear is that the ethonol plant will increase the price per bushel to the point were we will not be able to feed the cattle cheap enough.
Just remember..."Every action has an opposite and equal reaction."

 

[aplusmnt]

Karen, They just broke ground for an ethonol plant here locally. While it will add 100 or so jobs and probably make profit for the crop guys to plant more corn...the cattleman are concerned about the corn prices. The fear is that the ethonol plant will increase the price per bushel to the point were we will not be able to feed the cattle cheap enough.
Just remember..."Every action has an opposite and equal reaction."

This was my biggest concern! I could not see how Corn would not increase drastically especially if we went E85 across the board like some people want. Either Higher Corn prices or larger corn subsidies which means more taxes.

Maybe a wider use of E10 might be a compromise. Seems like MO Governor passed some law that either all the gas in MO had to be E10 or All gas used in Government vehicles not sure which it was.

 

[certherfbeef]

Seems like MO Governor passed some law that either all the gas in MO had to be E10 or All gas used in Government vehicles not sure which it was.

They are talking like that here. A good friend works for ODOT. He says that all state vehicles must run bio-fuel...all except the trooper's cars. Now, if this stuff was so good and efficient and safe for the engine, why not make the troopers put it in the cop cars as well?
I'm not sold on the idea just yet. I'll wait till they burn up a few state trucks, then decide.

 

[dun]

Saw an article the other day that somewhere they were going to open an etyhonal plant and it's being fought because of the water requiremnts and the impaxct on existing wells in the area.

dun

 

[Campground Cattle]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

If a person pays 28% less for a product in most cases they get 28% less product in return. That would explain the price difference between the 2 products. They both still overcharge the consumer. The only choice we have as consumers is who do we want to give our money to Big oil companies or Big ethanol companies.

Ignorance is bliss. You are looking at your pocket and not what is good for the country.
We need to tap nuclear, hydro and wind for power. We have over half the worlds known coal reserves and the technology to liquidfy it. We haven proven oil reserves off the East, West and Fla coast, that are not being drilled because not in my backyard the same with refineries.
All of these alternatives reduce our energy dependance on forgien oil except ethanol which increases it.

 

[Angus Guy]

I'm sorry but I'm going to open a whole can of worms here. E-85 does have a somewhat lower MPG but not as much as has been stated. Most of these claims include every form of energy in the making of and burning of ethenol ( this includes the solar power the corn plant uses to grow).

Now for the up side 15% less oil, higher prices for corn, abundadant supply of reasonably (or even cheap CATTLE feed and protien), more jobs created (ie John Deere, CaseIH, Massey from farmers being able to afford new equipment). Other good things are less emissions (ie clean air), renewable resource.

What this all boils down to is this is a product that will help the USA

 

[Caustic Burno]

I'm sorry but I'm going to open a whole can of worms here. E-85 does have a somewhat lower MPG but not as much as has been stated. Most of these claims include every form of energy in the making of and burning of ethenol ( this includes the solar power the corn plant uses to grow).

Now for the up side 15% less oil, higher prices for corn, abundadant supply of reasonably (or even cheap CATTLE feed and protien), more jobs created (ie John Deere, CaseIH, Massey from farmers being able to afford new equipment). Other good things are less emissions (ie clean air), renewable resource.

What this all boils down to is this is a product that will help the USA

I have to disagree with this one as all we are doing is helping an already subsidsed industry.

What Camp suggested is almost a CCC type program which would create hundred of thousands of jobs to just that of a few farmers.

It would take a much larger work force to build the dams, power plants coal and maintain industry which would provide nationwide jobs versus a subsidized corn farmer.
This is the same approach Roosevelt used to get the country back on it's feet in the 30's.
The CCC was building dams, power plants schools etc.
These type of jobs run this country pay the bulk of taxes and welfare programs. This is a much wiser course of helping the masses help themselves with renewable and non renewable resourse's. It just makes sense on the dams.wind and nuclear for energy versus a grain crop. Its just better for the country and the farmer, as the urban workers wages go up the better they are going to live and eat which helps all the farmers and ranchers not just some corn farmers.

 

[dj]

Isn't distillers grain going to replace the raw corn as feed?

Anyone know the maintenance cost difference between E85 and gasoline(we need to figure all our costs). You had a power loss with LP use but the motors lasted forever. And some of the larger company fleets(coke) that have high mileage use are switching to LP.

dun the disputed plant is between Rogersville and Fordland the dispute is over the amount of water being using from the aquifier. But nobody is mentioning the the throughbred farm N of town that has 6" risers and 1/2" jets to water the pasture for the horses and add curb appeal. Or the condo/golf course (300 units) and it's water use from their private wells.

 

[Angus Guy]

CB
Get the prices up and do away with direct and counter cycilier payments. In other words make this a free market system without government intervention. The CCC program was one that I didn't agree with. I will grant that it did alot of good for the infrastructure of the USA and it gave alot of people work. I just don't beleive it brought us out of the Depression.

We do need to explore all other forms of energy but lets not dump one that is working right now.

The urbanites work for the equipment manufactures and dealers. They then buy cars, homes, and othe goods that drive other businesses. As the farmer goes so does the rest of the country.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Sure are a lot of BIG corn farms going in down in Chihuahua the last few years.

 

[somn]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

If a person pays 28% less for a product in most cases they get 28% less product in return. That would explain the price difference between the 2 products. They both still overcharge the consumer. The only choice we have as consumers is who do we want to give our money to Big oil companies or Big ethanol companies.

Ignorance is bliss. You are looking at your pocket and not what is good for the country.
We need to tap nuclear, hydro and wind for power. We have over half the worlds known coal reserves and the technology to liquidfy it. We haven proven oil reserves off the East, West and Fla coast, that are not being drilled because not in my backyard the same with refineries.
All of these alternatives reduce our energy dependance on forgien oil except ethanol which increases it.

I buy more corn for the feedlot in one year than I will raise in my entire lifetime. So don't tell me I'm looking at my pocketbook and not at what is good for the country. I think supporting the people in my country by buying their product is more important than supporting your oil buddies from overseas. I see you are still claiming it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it is worth. Have you found any figures to support that claim yet?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Watch it Camp he might use his welfare/subsidy checks to drive down here to get your mind right.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB
Get the prices up and do away with direct and counter cycilier payments. In other words make this a free market system without government intervention. The CCC program was one that I didn't agree with. I will grant that it did alot of good for the infrastructure of the USA and it gave alot of people work. I just don't beleive it brought us out of the Depression.

We do need to explore all other forms of energy but lets not dump one that is working right now.

The urbanites work for the equipment manufactures and dealers. They then buy cars, homes, and othe goods that drive other businesses. As the farmer goes so does the rest of the country.

Naw this is economic's 101 if energy is cheaper for the urbanites from the sources I listed and this creates jobs this puts more dollars into the economy for us.
Let a full blown recession hit and see what leaves the table first.
It won't be beef thats for dinner it will be chicken.
It's that simple the better the economy is in the country the better for us not one little region.

 

[aplusmnt]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

If a person pays 28% less for a product in most cases they get 28% less product in return. That would explain the price difference between the 2 products. They both still overcharge the consumer. The only choice we have as consumers is who do we want to give our money to Big oil companies or Big ethanol companies.

Ignorance is bliss. You are looking at your pocket and not what is good for the country.
We need to tap nuclear, hydro and wind for power. We have over half the worlds known coal reserves and the technology to liquidfy it. We haven proven oil reserves off the East, West and Fla coast, that are not being drilled because not in my backyard the same with refineries.
All of these alternatives reduce our energy dependance on forgien oil except ethanol which increases it.

I buy more corn for the feedlot in one year than I will raise in my entire lifetime. So don't tell me I'm looking at my pocketbook and not at what is good for the country. I think supporting the people in my country by buying their product is more important than supporting your oil buddies from overseas. I see you are still claiming it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it is worth. Have you found any figures to support that claim yet?

One reason there is such a big push for ethanol at the moment, is because just now have prices got high enough for Gasoline for it to be financially pheasable. Gas prices drop back around $2.00 a gallon and Ethanol will be way higher than unleaded due to the high energy cost to make it.

Want to see the foreigners have some fun with our economy let us vest our interest in ethanol and then they lower oil prices and watch the hit the economy takes then.

 

[somn]

Watch it Camp he might use his welfare/subsidy checks to drive down here to get your mind right.

With the price of gas this high I might need you to send me some of that $1755 dollars of cowboy welfare money you get. The problem with driving all the way down there would be where do I find find you. Oh wait I could probably find you. You will be down at the FSA office signing up for some free money wearing the hat.