E85 and Bio-Diesel

[preston39]

The energy derived from burning gasoline comes basically from the bonds breaking to form new molecules (like C02).

The bulk of a typical gasoline consists of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Ethanol has 2 carbons.

According to a quick google search, the energy of Diesel, gasoline and ethanol is:

Diesel 147000 BTU/Gal
Gasoline 125000 BTU/Gal
Ethanol 84400 BTU/Gal

So E85 is about 90490 BTU/Gal or 72% the mileage of gasoline.

The figures you state are pretty close to that, although you would expect a little better for the highway then what they achieved.

Cheers,

Cran

Good post as most Americans can't see the whitewash job we are getting on ethanol. Ethanol will be more costly for the consumer and make us more dependant on foreign oil not less.
This has pork barrel all over it.
It is all about btu's an ethanol doesn't cut it. Unless you are a corn farmer thats the only American that benefits.

======================
That smells like Texas cowchips....and you just don't know what you are talking about. I have seen you take that position before. You are about 10 years outdated.

RFDTV today at 5:15 featured Rick Tolman Of NCGA on ethanol production using more energy than it produces:

"That is an old theory which should have died years ago. With the latest refinments online we are now producing 2 units of ethanol production for every 1 unit of energy used to produce the product. Before the latest technologies it was 1.7 units for each 1 unit used to produce the product. Corn usage for ethanol will triple to 16 billion bushels in 10 years. Further,30% of the corn used is returned for nutrient value".

We are not corn growers....but am sure glad to see our growers replacing the need for imported oil.

 

[preston39]

......."
Want to see the foreigners have some fun with our economy let us vest our interest in ethanol and then they lower oil prices and watch the hit the economy takes then.[/quote]"
================


That is a distinct possibility and is troublesome. However, we are reminded of the definition of a pioneer; "That is an early American with an arrow in his bottom".

 

[aplusmnt]

......."
Want to see the foreigners have some fun with our economy let us vest our interest in ethanol and then they lower oil prices and watch the hit the economy takes then.

"
================


That is a distinct possibility and is troublesome. However, we are reminded of the definition of a pioneer; "That is a early American with an arrow in his bottom".[/quote]

Thing is we were not forced to be a Pioneer. Ethanol is becoming a Political issue. Instead of a free market issue. We have had E10 I think at least 16 years here in my little town. Ethanol is not new, its just now because everyone is crying about gas prices, the government is trying to appease them with stuff like E85.

Kind of like Hybrid cars, in the end they do not save you money, the little savings you get from better gas mileage comes in other areas like, battery replacement, higher mechanic bills etc.... But it makes people fill better.

The free Market will take care of this problem if the Politicians will leave it alone. Much like in the 70's when we received the Pinto and Vega and all those small Japanese cars.

I am in favor of ethanol as long as it is a Business venture between corn and oil companies as a free Market enterprise. Much like it was 15 years ago.

 

[preston39]

Don...,

Argue ably we were not forced. However it is a matter of time...months now...I am afraid...when Iran/Venezuela pulls the rug out from under the oil supply and we will be hit hard. The progress to date with ethanol/bio-diesel will look like gold.

We must walk before we can run and I am betting we will be proud of our efforts here soon. Hope I am wrong because we are all going to pay a high price.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Watch it Camp he might use his welfare/subsidy checks to drive down here to get your mind right.

With the price of gas this high I might need you to send me some of that $1755 dollars of cowboy welfare money you get. The problem with driving all the way down there would be where do I find find you. Oh wait I could probably find you. You will be down at the FSA office signing up for some free money wearing the hat.

You are just like one of them oheeee birds that flies in cirlces every time you head flies up your butt you holler oheeeee its dark in here.
Remember you are the one that fessed up to being a welfare farmer and have been mad ever since.

 

[somn]

Watch it Camp he might use his welfare/subsidy checks to drive down here to get your mind right.

With the price of gas this high I might need you to send me some of that $1755 dollars of cowboy welfare money you get. The problem with driving all the way down there would be where do I find find you. Oh wait I could probably find you. You will be down at the FSA office signing up for some free money wearing the hat.

You are just like one of them oheeee birds that flies in cirlces every time you head flies up your butt you holler oheeeee its dark in here.
Remember you are the one that fessed up to being a welfare farmer and have been mad ever since.

Less than $6000.00 in corn subsidies in 19 years doesn't make me the least bit mad. It is welfare cowboys like you that make me mad.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Watch it Camp he might use his welfare/subsidy checks to drive down here to get your mind right.

With the price of gas this high I might need you to send me some of that $1755 dollars of cowboy welfare money you get. The problem with driving all the way down there would be where do I find find you. Oh wait I could probably find you. You will be down at the FSA office signing up for some free money wearing the hat.

You are just like one of them oheeee birds that flies in cirlces every time you head flies up your butt you holler oheeeee its dark in here.
Remember you are the one that fessed up to being a welfare farmer and have been mad ever since.

Less than $6000.00 in corn subsidies in 19 years doesn't make me the least bit mad. It is welfare cowboys like you that make me mad.

Somn you have a 15 watt bulb in 60 watt socket you still have taxes and welfare confused.
Even if you didn't want the world to know you are standing in the welfare line you shouldn't have posted your dirty laundry.

 

[somn]

Caustic it must really hurt your pride to know you are standing in front of me in the line huh? You go take time out of your day to go sign up for the freebies I only accept what is offered to me. You said it yourself if you can get by without taking the handout but you still take it anyway thats worse than welfare. Sucks to be you.

 

[Howdyjabo]

We have to remember that one big benefit to this-- is it adds value to keeping land in agriculture.
Right now our county is anti- ag And I feel that alot of this country is going the same way.

Remember the tree huggers- and their recycling program
In theory it sounded good- but around here it put 5,000 acres out of production and into developments for the most part. The demand for pulp decreased and the trees they were trying to save ended up gone for ever. We should have found a way to deal constructively with the paper wastes- not use less.

Keep value in Agriculture and land will stay in agriculture --instead of developments.


As far as not being enough corn to go around- and the price spiking Not gonna happen. If theres money in growing corn alot of land will be turned back over to corn production in areas where its not viable right now.
There will be a price increase(when subsidies stop/ and they should) but it should be offset by by=products.
And trust the farmers-- if there is money in growing corn- they will figure out how to do it better and cheaper till they flood the market and decrease the value of the product again.
We are a stupid lot and never learn :)

And if there IS a corn shortage-- I would much rather import corn than oil.
its ALOT safer to move around and the money doesn't go into an area that seems bent on destroying us with all the money they have made off us to date :)

I see only good coming out of this for ALL farmers-- including the cattleman.

I can't answer on the water issue-- it seems to be a growing problem that needs to be addressed just as much as the energy issue.
I think that with the shortage and grwoing demand--- that all water useage ought to be paid for-- that would keep pressure on to do with less so there is more to go where its really needed.And add value to developing ways to conserve and clean water.
How to implement that I have NO IDEA.....

But it occurs to me that I would like to build a few small ponds and sell water :)



As far as other countries playing by dropping prices on oil to undersell our growing ethanol dependency. Easily fixed- nail a huge tax on import oil and invest in mass transportation with the revenues to improove the environment and city grid locks.

This isn't like nuclear energy-- where there are NO solutions to its drawbacks
This is workable- it just has to be valued enough to come up with the answers. Put some money behind it and someone will .

 

[Chuck]

I think that with the shortage and grwoing demand--- that all water useage ought to be paid for-- that would keep pressure on to do with less so there is more to go where its really needed.And add value to developing ways to conserve and clean water.
How to implement that I have NO IDEA.....

Don't worry, There's a whole bunch of people, government and non government,working on a way to implement it for you.

But it occurs to me that I would like to build a few small ponds and sell water

If you don't own the water in your private household well casing free and clear,how could you own and be able to sell surface water?

I'm not trying to start an argument here Karen. Simply put, the idea of having a water meter on my private well so that I have to pay some government agency to flush the toilet or water the kids 4H calves just pisses me off. It seems to me to be more about revenue and control and the erosion of private property rights than conserving water. Where does it end?

 

[marimus]

I'm sorry but I'm going to open a whole can of worms here. E-85 does have a somewhat lower MPG but not as much as has been stated. Most of these claims include every form of energy in the making of and burning of ethenol ( this includes the solar power the corn plant uses to grow).

My figures were BTU of final product, which do not include production energy.

If you include production energy, efficiency of ethanol gets worse.

Cran

 

[marimus]

RFDTV today at 5:15 featured Rick Tolman Of NCGA on ethanol production using more energy than it produces:

What is NCGA? Google gives me...
Northern California Golf Association
North Carolina General Assembly
National Cooperative Growers Association
National Corn Growers Association

Also, do you have a link to information regarding your stated yields for modern ethanol production?

Thanks,

Cran

 

[dun]

This is the only thing I found that was of any interest:

USDA recently determined the net
energy balance of ethanol production is 1.67 to
1. For every 100 BTUs of energy used to make
ethanol, 167 BTUs of energy is produced. The
USDA fi ndings have been confi rmed by additional
studies conducted at several universities and
government laboratories.
These studies take into account the energy
required to plant, grow and harvest the corn — as
well as the energy required to manufacture and
distribute the ethanol.
The net energy balance of ethanol production
continues to improve because ethanol and
corn production are becoming more effi cient.
For example, one bushel of corn now yields 2.8
gallons of ethanol — up from 2.5 gallons just a
few years ago.

 

[preston39]

RFDTV today at 5:15 featured Rick Tolman Of NCGA on ethanol production using more energy than it produces:

What is NCGA? Google gives me...
Northern California Golf Association
North Carolina General Assembly
National Cooperative Growers Association
National Corn Growers Association

Also, do you have a link to information regarding your stated yields for modern ethanol production?

Thanks,

Cran

==========
National corn growers association;

http://www.ncga.com/

RFDTV;

http://www.rfdtv.com/

 

[Campground Cattle]

Don...,

Argue ably we were not forced. However it is a matter of time...months now...I am afraid...when Iran/Venezuela pulls the rug out from under the oil supply and we will be hit hard. The progress to date with ethanol/bio-diesel will look like gold.

We must walk before we can run and I am betting we will be proud of our efforts here soon. Hope I am wrong because we are all going to pay a high price.

Prestone you have been gone quite awhile I see you are still misinformed as ever.

Venezula is not going to close anything, who do you think owns and runs Citgo? Who do think monitizes crude with American dollars to stay in power? Who do you think,it's you every time you fill your tank with Citgo. He is not going to quit letting you support him.
As far as Iran they would be hurt even more than us by cutting off the oil.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRepor ... 0807a.html

PS When your not buying from the Venezuelan's(Citgo) Fina (French) Texaco(Saudia) ARCO(British) Soho (British) Amoco(British) Shell (Dutch) and I can't remember who swallowed up Gulf Oil . Thats why there hasn't been another oil embargo they are not cutting off the hand that feeds them.
You can thank Bill Clinton for this mess. He converted the American oil industry into a global source for refined products.

 

[preston39]

Better get updated.

 

[kjones]

I don't care what anybody says, its all because of crooked politicians dang it! :x

 

[preston39]

From Cow and Calf Weekly;

"Our Perspective
Adding To The Great Ethanol Debate
Corn farmers love the ethanol boom and cattle feeders located in areas where ethanol production has grown, are learning lessons about competitive advantage. Those outside the immediate marketing area of the ethanol plants tend to be pretty down on ethanol plants as they raise the price of corn, and increase competition for feed grains. Some would argue that the historical relationship between corn prices and feeder calf prices will never be the same, if that is the case access to ethanol byproducts will be critical to survival.

There can't be much argument that we are in the middle of a harvest that promises to be one of the biggest in history and yet corn has shown significant strength in its face. While this rally may not be sustainable, the difference between $3 and $2 corn in the marketplace can't be denied. At current cattle prices, the incentive to make cattle big will not subside greatly with $3 corn, and the impact on the calf market is significant.

Some have argued that this could be the one factor that shifts fed cattle production back toward the Midwest, though that would also entail a shift in packing capacity and is difficult to foresee. It will be intriguing to see how the cow-calf segment adjusts its nutritional programs to attempt to take advantage of these byproducts.

Higher corn prices are possibly here to stay with ethanol demand projected to double with the U.S. government providing a subsidy of $.51/gallon. While the subsidy is distorting true market signals and falsely building demand, the risk for building an ethanol plant has largely been removed with numerous estimates suggesting that a new ethanol plant can pay for itself in 18 months.

This false demand has the potential to be as market distorting as the farm bill, and will likely lead to a clash between those who would like to see more ground to go into corn production with the new demand dynamics (we can't continue to bank on record crop year after year, just to meet today's demand levels). This is likely to clash with those who continue to push for more conservation and even more land being taken out of production.

There are many in this country that do not see food production as a national security priority and would like to see food production shifted out of this country, especially animal production. The energy concerns magnified with the unrest in the Middle East, and environmental concerns in the form of increased demand for conservation lands, will be working together to lower U.S. beef production.
-- Troy Marshall"

 

[aplusmnt]

Had not heard about the $.51 ethanol subsidy before. If this is true that really is great. First they get Corn Subsidies and now a Subsidy on a corn product. :mad:

 

[preston39]

As I understand it. The .51 subsidy is for an incentive to develop alternative fuels. The market place at work. Afterall the oil companys could care less how much we pay for gas. Thus no incentive for them to look at alternatives to replace high cost oil imports. Which may be interrupted at any time. Iran, Venezuela, et al, would love that.

Nothing is perfect. Yes we will pay a little more for corn because of the market...... at work.