do we meddle too much

[Red Bull Breeder]

I vacinate worm when needed, keep some fly rubs salt and mineral out check cows once a day heifers twice a day when calving. My cattle stay in decent condition and raise calves. I eat what i raise and it suits me just fine.

 

[dieselbeef]

like i said...managin aint meddlin.
makin yer herd healthy and safe to eat as well as quality aint meddlin. its managin.
palpatin yer cow and tryin to ''get it outta there'' is the kinda meddlin i was referring to...the i cant bring myself to eat it cuz its my baby menality is meddlin. that aint managing. its meddlin
lettin the cow live as a cow and keepin it healthy is managin. ai is managin...

and i mean no offense to anyone either way.

this thread just kinda came back to me after readin some stuff lately and thought it might be a good discussion to carry back
..

DB...was this a polite pot shot at me? And as for tasty beef we just had some fillet mignon MR (sp) for lunch. It came from a grass feed steer....mmmmm tasty

hey rock..no offense there at all. was the only things that came to mind and i am not sure who posted what. just thinkin out loud. seriously im not tellin anyone how to raise thier animals. thats yer business and i dont like to stick my nose where it dont belong.

just wondering how much work and grief we create because we ""think"" the cows need our help or that we could do it a better way than the cow could. sometimes things are just better left to natural ways....they aint always better though i will admit. definitely times when we are needed by the cows as well

 

[Brute 23]

just wondering how much work and grief we create because we ""think"" the cows need our help or that we could do it a better way than the cow could. sometimes things are just better left to natural ways....they aint always better though i will admit.

That is it right there. Lots of headaches are created by the owners... not the cattle.

I had a little expereince with some cattle not too long ago. I was on a man's place that raised Black Angus Cattle. Let me list some of the issues he faced.

-Cattle will not eat coastal hay, only like that millet stuff and most of the time he had to spray the bales with molasses to get them to eat it.
(My thought is if they were hungary they would eat)

-When we worked cattle the mommas would leave the calves behind when they were being drove. Most of the time we would have to go back and bring the calves. Also, if you turned a cow out after working them they would not wait around for their calf. IF the calf didn't get with the herd they would still be at the pens balling the next morning.
(Can't beat our brahma crosses away from their calves. Which leades to the next issue...)

-Calves were constantly being lost to mud, coyotes/ dogs, and calving problems. Not counting the ones we had to save.
(I messed with more calves there, in one year, than I had ever messed with in my lifetime. I understand where these calf loss numbers come from now :shock: )

-He had 9 wire barbed wire fences to keep the cattle in. His bulls would still tear a fence down to get to heifers no matter what.

That was the prime example of some one who spoiled their cattle and is putting way more effort into the them than necessary. Then to top it off he would cry and complain about how there was no money to be made in the cattle business and how cattle are nothing but a hastle. He created that situation, no one else. :|

 

[grubbie]

in the cows business.

doctorin
vitamins
feed
breedin
x-breedin
calfin

you all git the idea. just a thought dont kill me here!!. its not like theyre goin extinct and need the help. seems like alot of the time things are done that really might not need it...calfin worries for example. people tend to jump in way too early most of the time.

cows actually git along pretty well without a whole lotta help seems to me. i know mine do! im not saying neglected i mean just by nature

A lot on this board treat them as pets or doctor for everthing.
I still live by put grass in front of the cow and a bull behind the cow.
If the cow can't stay fat and raise a good calf on my grass I changing the cow not the grass.
They have to do it on grass only here.
I do vac for bangs and blackleg.

I couldn't agree more. Some folks get pretty carried away with things. That's fine if you have the time and money. But my cows better raise me a calf with a minimum of supervision and intervention, or they are gone. When it comes to calving, mama takes care of the calf's needs, not me, or she's gone. Health problems with a cow,...fix it if need be, then she's gone. Fence crawlers,...gone. Wild or mean cows,.....gone. Cull ANY problem. Just one more reason for keeping my own heifers, I know they come from stock that produces well in this region.

 

[Keren]

like i said...managin aint meddlin.
makin yer herd healthy and safe to eat as well as quality aint meddlin. its managin.
palpatin yer cow and tryin to ''get it outta there'' is the kinda meddlin i was referring to...the i cant bring myself to eat it cuz its my baby menality is meddlin. that aint managing. its meddlin
lettin the cow live as a cow and keepin it healthy is managin. ai is managin...

and i mean no offense to anyone either way.

this thread just kinda came back to me after readin some stuff lately and thought it might be a good discussion to carry back
..

DB...was this a polite pot shot at me? And as for tasty beef we just had some fillet mignon MR (sp) for lunch. It came from a grass feed steer....mmmmm tasty

hey rock..no offense there at all. was the only things that came to mind and i am not sure who posted what. just thinkin out loud. seriously im not tellin anyone how to raise thier animals. thats yer business and i dont like to stick my nose where it dont belong.

just wondering how much work and grief we create because we ""think"" the cows need our help or that we could do it a better way than the cow could. sometimes things are just better left to natural ways....they aint always better though i will admit. definitely times when we are needed by the cows as well

diesal, I appreciate what you have been saying in principle on this thread, and I like the idea behind it.

But, it only takes a little bit of experience to figure out when a cow really does need our help. Palpating and 'getting it out of there' in some situations is managing, not meddling. As has been said a couple of times already, its all about keeping them alive.

 

[hillsdown]

I was going to comment on this whole thread as it is the first time I have read it BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not want to get banned and those of you that have day jobs keep them so you won't have to "meddle" (what the f kind of word is that) with cattle..............:::::::::::::::::::: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[TexasBred]

I was going to comment on this whole thread as it is the first time I have read it BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not want to get banned and those of you that have day jobs keep them so you won't have to "meddle" (what the f kind of word is that) with cattle..............:::::::::::::::::::: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hillsdown...I notice you have a holstein calf as an avatar so assume you are dairying. A herd of dairy cattle is a totally different situation than a herd of beefcattle. I understand the regimen required with dairy cattle. ;-)

 

[Aero]

in the cows business.

doctorin
vitamins
feed
breedin
x-breedin
calfin

you all git the idea. just a thought dont kill me here!!. its not like theyre goin extinct and need the help. seems like alot of the time things are done that really might not need it...calfin worries for example. people tend to jump in way too early most of the time.

cows actually git along pretty well without a whole lotta help seems to me. i know mine do! im not saying neglected i mean just by nature

most of these things should be the result of a sound business decision while maintaining appropriate respect for the animal doing the work. unfortunately, most of them are done because some guy told the farmer to do it without explaining what the trade off would be.

 

[Aero]

I understand the regimen required with dairy cattle. ;-)

"required" might be too strong. "currently practiced with acceptable results" might be more appropriate.

 

[milkmaid]

I understand the regimen required with dairy cattle. ;-)

"required" might be too strong. "currently practiced with acceptable results" might be more appropriate.

If one were to attempt to manage a dairy herd in the same way a beef herd is managed... you'd lose at least 50% of them.

Individual dairy cows may sometimes be managed like a beef cow (ie the occasional low producing dairy cow that runs with a beef herd on pasture), but an entire dairy herd wouldn't survive long in that setting. "Required" isn't too strong a word.

 

[TexasBred]

Milkmaid. :clap: :clap: Many have never been exposed to a huge herd of holsteins that operated like machines always expecting max production in every area.

 

[backhoeboogie]

If one were to attempt to manage a dairy herd in the same way a beef herd is managed... you'd lose at least 50% of them.

Individual dairy cows may sometimes be managed like a beef cow (ie the occasional low producing dairy cow that runs with a beef herd on pasture), but an entire dairy herd wouldn't survive long in that setting. "Required" isn't too strong a word.

Thank you.

My nurse cows run with my beef cows. You are exactly right. It is apples and oranges. Even my heavy milk producing beef cows don't have near the output of dairy cows. The animals do not function the same.

 

[rockridgecattle]

DB, no offence taken, just a unhealthy dose of curiosity.
have a good day,

RR

 

[Aero]

If one were to attempt to manage a dairy herd in the same way a beef herd is managed... you'd lose at least 50% of them.

Individual dairy cows may sometimes be managed like a beef cow (ie the occasional low producing dairy cow that runs with a beef herd on pasture), but an entire dairy herd wouldn't survive long in that setting. "Required" isn't too strong a word.

i am not pretending to know anything about dairies, but it's hard for me to believe that a 3-4 yr productive life with super-high feed bills and little grazing is the optimal system for the farmer, cow and industry.

with development costs to get an animal to calving, only to use them for a few years seems like a pretty risky investment. i would like to know what percentage of expenses are from feeding.

it just looks exactly like the current beef mentality of bigger, better, faster growing, higher nutritional requirements, working for the animals instead of the other way around.

how would you lose 50% of them?

 

[hillsdown]

i am not pretending to know anything about dairies,

by Aero on Fri May 09, 2008 6:12 am

Aero I can only tell you something about Alberta dairies and that is you will need about 2 miilion dollars to just buy the quota to milk 50 cows with average production .
That does not include anything else,,,,,,land, facilities ,feed ,cows etc...

This is not a business for the inept or unexperienced ; you will go broke very ,very fast.

Also it is regulated very strictly .

 

[TexasBred]

Aero, a well managed dairy shouldn't be much different than a well managed beef cow operation. They expect maximum milk production, quick breed backs and hopefully on going "good health" in each cow. I'm talking 20,000 lbs. of milk or more per cow per lactation and is fed from 45 to 55 lbs. of dry matter per day depending on her ability to eat. She is brought in to milk 2 or 3 times per day for over 300 days without exception. She spends much of her time on concrete, in crowded conditions and is constantly under stress from some outside source. She is most often AI bred each year, may develop mastitis in a quarter, have to have hoofs trimmed or treated for foot rot and multiple other things. On well run dairies if she fails at any one thing (production, breeding, health or anything else) she is subject to be culled. This can be as high as 35% or mor on a typical dairy as the dairy cannot afford to kept an unproductive cow. Feed cost alone today can run over $6.00 per head per day. In return the producer gets the milk which may fluctuate in price from $10 per hundred weight to $22.00 per hundred weight. He never knows until he gets his check. He also will get a calf. If it's a heifer she may be very valuable. If it's a bull it might be worth $50. They are most often hand raised as the mother goes straight to the dairy barn. So the high dollar heifer calf arrives with a high price tag attached.

While she's doing this the typical beef cow lounges around ruminating, grazing or eating hay whenever she pleases, hopefully breeds and gives birth to a calf and is expected to produce enough milk to raise that one calf every year and maintain a pretty good body condition herself. In some situations she may be penned a couple times a year for vaccinatinos and worming, and insemination if the owner AI Breeds. She too is subject to be culled as well but probably has a 100% chance of surviving from year to year than a dairy cow and the chances of surviving to the age of 10 or more are astronomical compared to dairy cattle.

 

[hillsdown]

Well said TB :clap: :nod:

Also, there aren't many acreage owners buying a couple dairy cows for lawn mowers just because they can......well, besides the few that want a milk cow for their family.

 

[1982vett]

I was going to comment on this whole thread as it is the first time I have read it BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I do not want to get banned and those of you that have day jobs keep them so you won't have to "meddle" (what the f kind of word is that) with cattle..............:::::::::::::::::::: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Thanks for the reminder, I have to go meddle. Have a cow looking like she could drop a calf anytime for the last two weeks. She wasn't with the herd yesterday. Drove the pastures twice and didn't see her. Hate it when they hide out like that. Hope she is there this morning.

Update:

Cow was with with the rest of the herd. Had an nice bull calf with her. :nod:

 

[spinandslide]

I think a lot of people who are new to cattle think of them like dogs.

I think you are right Matt. AND a lot of people think of dogs and cats like people.

I saw a young lady walking her dog the other day and there was a blue large pad looking contraption strapped on it's back.
I asked about it and she said it was to keep her dog from getting cold.
I told her that she put that on her dog to keep it from getting cold but that she had on shorts and something about that didn't compute.

Ever see that dog whisperer show? 99% of his business is because people treat dogs like humans. People these days are so seperated from the real world.

We raise horses and Ill be danged if I see tons of people wanting to get right in the middle of a poor mare when shes foaling..its like they have to be involved and want to pull and "help"...it drives me nuts. Observe, but dont get involved unless needed..most animals handle that stuff fine on their own.

 

[TexasBred]

Well said TB :clap: :nod:

Also, there aren't many acreage owners buying a couple dairy cows for lawn mowers just because they can......well, besides the few that want a milk cow for their family.

HD...but you do get a multi-purpose animal with a dairy cow. With all that feed intake she does a more than adequate job of fertilization even as she mows.