Do red hides get discounted?

[Lee VanRoss]

That sounds very fancy - but, we are talking about common breeds. Yes, there are some oddball breeds that have different horn genes and other genes that don't follow the rules..
What are you calling a "piebald color"?
"Normal" beef breeds have "normal" red genes and "normal" black genes and "normal" horned/polled genes. It is not rocket science. Black is a dominant gene over red. Polled is dominant over horned. SPOTTING gene is recessive. *You must inherit a spotting gene (BODY SPOTS) from both parents.] You can have a spotted animal (like Holsteins and Simmental) and breed to an animal not CARRYING a spotting gene and you will have a SOLID colored offspring. Not rocket science.
Edit: we are NOT talking about MUTATIONS. Stick to a normal conversation about beef cattle.

Seems like things are so until they ain't! I have some Red Angus / Corriente cross. Some of them are spotted. In the same cow family some
are solid black, some are solid red. some are red and white spotted, some are black and white spotted. The bulls are from a nationally
recognized Red Angus herd which I shall not name.. This past year I had a 3/4 black and white heifer throw a solid black heifer calf. I am
curios to see what the 7/8 calf will throw. This spring a 7/8 red and white spotted had a 15/16 red and white bull calf. (15/16 RA)
The bulls used over the past 15 plus years are from the same herd but different blood lines. In as much as you made a declarative statement
that body spots must be inherited from both parents I am compelled to respectfully .inquire as to the source of your research .

 

[Rmc]

"Normal" beef breeds have "normal" red genes and "normal" black genes and "normal" horned/polled genes. It is not rocket science. Black is a dominant gene over red. Polled is dominant over horned. SPOTTING gene is recessive. You must inherit a spotting gene (BODY SPOTS) from both parents. You can have a spotted animal (like Holsteins and Simmental) and breed to an animal not CARRYING a spotting gene and you will have a SOLID colored offspring. Not rocket science.
Edit: we are NOT talking about MUTATIONS. Stick to a normal conversation about beef cattle.

If we are talking about any coat color in cattle we are talking about MUTATIONS.
So are you saying Holsteins aren't "normal cattle"
You are the one who brought them up in this thread. This talks about dominant red in Holstein.

https://www.cdn.ca/document.php?id=339

This talks about that polled genes are different in Holsteins then simi. Aren't they the two breeds we have been discussing?

 

[Travlr]

I'm like Ken, I don't fear genetic defects, and I have had first-hand experience with my very own Angus genetic defect.
Bought a registered Angus bull from a local breeder(a friend and veterinary colleague). Used him as a walking sire for 2 years, then went heavy on AI breeding... but he was a nice, gentle bull who sired really nice calves, so we kept him around as a cleanup bull for 7 years longer. Occasionally, he'd get a chance to breed a direct daughter or granddaughter. Several years out, we had an occasional calf born that couldn't get up, looked kind of 'short-coupled', had a curve in their neck. Had to put them down - but I cut off and froze back an ear from each. As time went by, we had more abnormal calves - not a lot... I think maybe 9 over a 6 year period, out of an 80-cow herd - including 3, the last year, that were by a 2y.o. SimAngus bull, sired by the old Angus bull, that we kept to use one year on heifers. Deformed calves came in both Fall and Spring calving seasons, so the likelihood of a plant toxin was pretty easily ruled out.

We worked with Dr. Jon Beever (then at UofIL), at the behest of AAA, and he identified a defective gene, linked to a known malady, Sodium Channel Neuropathy, in laboratory animals. We tested the entire herd, and approximately half the cows were carriers of the SCN defect. Backtracking, by testing all AI sires behind this bull (a SAF Focus of ER grandson, out of an 878 daughter... so pretty mainstream at the time) did not reveal any carriers in his pedigree, so he was considered the 'founder' of the defect.

Bull went to slaughter at 10 yrs of age, and we dispersed the herd in 2019. No registered animals in the herd other than the young PB Simmental herdsire, unrelated to anything in the herd... so most of the cows - including carriers of the SCN defect - sold as bred commercial cows -and we did not announce defect status at the sale. Was that unscrupulous? I'm not sure, but I guess I've thrown a previously-unknown genetic defect out into the commercial cow herd... where it will most likely just be diluted and disappear over time, since there shouldn't be any bulls out there carrying that defective gene.

Well it looks like ya'll (speaking to everyone thinking I'm "wrong") have come to a swift conclusion that everything's fine as long as you survive your own personal experience...

Personally the above post scared the bejeebers out of me. The level of irresponsibility is staggering.

"Bull went to slaughter at 10 yrs of age, and we dispersed the herd in 2019. No registered animals in the herd other than the young PB Simmental herdsire, unrelated to anything in the herd... so most of the cows - including carriers of the SCN defect - sold as bred commercial cows -and we did not announce defect status at the sale."

That says it all. And all I can do is shake my head and wonder how those of you that think this is good business call yourselves cattlemen. Shade tree mechanics, maybe...

 

[simme]

Some good technical information on color/genetics from the simmental website. Covers simmental, holstein, longhorn, florida crackers and other breeds. Spotting, belts, roan, brockle and other patterns.

https://www.simmental.org/site/pdf/other/olsoncolor.pdf

 

[KAstocker]

Is money made on the buy or the sell?

Money is made on the buy. You can control the price you pay to buy. You can't quite control sell price.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Thank you Simme! The article referenced makes a good argument for the logical.
The opinionated, on the other hand, not so much!

 

[Brute 23]

Money is made on the buy. You can control the price you pay to buy. You can't quite control sell price.

I agree.

Famous last words... prices dropped.

 

[Muletrack]

30-40 years ago around here many of the small dairy farms would use a Hereford clean up bull. The majority of the beef herds were Hereford and a bull was easy to get. Alot of those Holstein/Herford black baldy calves were kept for beef cows or crossed to get 1/4 or 1/8 Holstein. Just saying Angus is not the only source for black color in breed-up programs.

Started my herd with three HerefordxHolstein bottle calves when I graduated high school. These made great cows. Such bottle calves are rare today, as are folks milking 5-10 cows for local cheese plants. We have fewer than 90 dairy farms now in the entire state.

 

[50/50Farms]

Well it looks like ya'll (speaking to everyone thinking I'm "wrong") have come to a swift conclusion that everything's fine as long as you survive your own personal experience...

Personally the above post scared the bejeebers out of me. The level of irresponsibility is staggering.



That says it all. And all I can do is shake my head and wonder how those of you that think this is good business call yourselves cattlemen. Shade tree mechanics, maybe...

Don't throw insults around, man, it won't help us out here much.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

Don't throw insults around, man, it won't help us out here much.

LOL. And he is insulting vets! This 'un is one of them that if he was on trial, they couldn't gsrner enough evidence to convict.

 

[50/50Farms]

It's my oldest daughter's birthday and I'm in too good a mood to go in on anybody too hard, but it certainly won't help us to find a middle ground if'n we all go nasty every time this comes up. Especially since it's now a daily occurrence. We all, from the one to two cow backyard feeders on here to the guys with 1,500 head, all have things to learn and things to teach, opinions to be heard and insights to be gained. This can't keep being covered up in sarcasm, snide remarks and people being nasty for no reason. Especially when I know half of them don't talk to people like this when they ain't on the internet. Instead of worrying about who's right and who's wrong, I think the big interest is in seeing why people think what they do, what impact it has on their experiences, and how these experiences differ in different areas. I see old men on here act like damn kids sometimes.

 

[Warren Allison]

I agree with Travlr that the genetic base is automatically narrowed too much with the CAB program. I don't think there's a tinkers difference in "taste", if the animal has good genetics. It's a horse apiece. But the reality is that the Angus breed association has done a tremendous job of marketing their product, and the public has definitely been swayed by it. If it's a high quality hamburger you're ordering, it's gonna be labeled Angus in one way or another... and the retailer then is gonna be charging a premium because of that labeling. So there ya go... black brings $$$.

Yes. Angus beef brings $3 more than "just beef" at the supermarket. Packers charge retailers $1.50 a lb more for that angus beef, and pay feedlots 75 cents a pound more for back calves they are pretty sure will make certified Angus status. Feed lots tell buyers they can go uo to a certain price per lb for black calves that may attain certified Angus cattle, so they will bid higher on these black calves at the auction. They will $.30 cents more a lb because they will get 75 cents more per lb at the packers. People will pay more for a loud paint, or a Palomino ( talking about the general public, not knowledgeable horsemen) than they will a good blood bay with no white. Nothing wrong or illegal or immoraal at all about people preferring black cattle or palomino horses.

The amount of premium paid, if any, depends on where the sale is. Down here..there are no packers, feed lots, thus no "buyers" buying trailer truck loads of catle. Most of the sale banrs have conditioning lots, and the owners will buy calves, and vaccinate and worn, etc, steer the bull caalves and out them on feed for a while. Usually that period of time is ever how long it takes them to accumulate a truck load of like size and kind. In that odd spot of the country where Oregon Dave lives..where Charlais and red catte sell for more than black ( he says). th eb;ach calves may not bring any or very litte premium. In a state where twice a year, 100000 0r so calves are sent to market twice a year, and there are probably more black calves sold than there are people in the state, then there wouldn't be a need to pay a premium. Now in the corn belt, where the lots are, a buyer might have oders for 8 truckoands a week--6 certified Angus candidate and the other 2 just prime or choice beef, then hell yeah there will be a big spread. You have multi buyers there needing that many truckloads of black a week, then they gonna bid like hell to try to get their orders filled, They bid till the all but one drops out because it got too high. ECON 101...supply and demand. These yahoos on here wanting the Angus programs to end and want everyone to raise red or white cattle to "show them evil angus breeders" are actually helping people wwho raise blacks. If I raised them I would hope to hell people flooded the market with red $ white calves and not as many black calves went to market. Then instead of a 20-30 vent premium, I would get $1 premium per lb. What they do not comprehend, is that if TRVLR succeeded in suing AAA, (was who I think he wanted to sure),and got them to pull their CAB program, or Lee succeeded in getting Congress to pass a law saying it was illegal to pay more for a black cow than any other, they will not get 1 penny more for their red or white cows. They will just get that same amount for their back calves!! COSTING them money!

And I agree with Coachg in response to Sthrncboy... load up two loads that are fairly well matched, one black, one red. 9 times out of 10, those black hides will bring a higher price. So THERE is your discount. I wish it weren't so, but I see it all the time, and so does anybody else that's paying attention. Don't compare just "one lot" or "one load", there will always be outliers............ watch over a longer period of time and calculate the averages... it'll become obvious pretty quickly.

Yes, that is right. I explained why above. Should be a 20-30 cents/lb more paid for the black load, if both trailer loads would score choice or prime. If both would score select or lower, then no, there would be no premiums paid on the blacks. Not all black calves bring that premium.

If you're selling your animals direct to consumer, you can overcome that bias... but not at the sale barn.



No, but they'll still be going through the ring with a black hide to take advantage of the advantages of that marketing program.

 

[Warren Allison]

Just let him read this: Your black calves brought more than your Herefords because of the certified Angus premium buyers will pay. I would try to sell the man a red or black instead of a yellow, because the red is going to retain a higher re-sell value than the yellow. fI he insist and buys a yellow car, then don't come bitchin because the dealer won't give us as much in trade in as he does the ones who bought a red one. Now THAT is as much closer anaology to the black calf thing. Of course he knows that yellow, brown, green etc. cars don't hold the resell as much as black or red or white ones do, but buys one anyhow because he likes yellow. Then gets mad because no one else wants it, and the dealer won't put as much into it. same thing with cattle. By now, there shouldn't be anyone in the business that doesn't know black calves sell better, and how to get themselves some black calves.

Well, if anyone who can read was to read this, and STILL didn't understand, then you may as well give up playing chess with those pigeons

 

[simme]

Yes. Angus beef brings $3 more than "just beef" at the supermarket. Packers charge retailers $1.50 a lb more for that angus beef, and pay feedlots 75 cents a pound more for back calves they are pretty sure will make certified Angus status.

Seems like that $0.75/pound might be high for CAB premium on slaughter cattle. Average live price on slaughter cattle this week was $1.57.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If we are talking about any coat color in cattle we are talking about MUTATIONS.
So are you saying Holsteins aren't "normal cattle"
You are the one who brought them up in this thread. This talks about dominant red in Holstein.

https://www.cdn.ca/document.php?id=339

This talks about that polled genes are different in Holsteins then simi. Aren't they the two breeds we have been discussing?

No - WE are talking about NORMAL coat colors. YOU are talking about mutations. The article you gave us for your example (did you read it??) says: "and neither of her confirmed parents were carriers of the recessive red gene traditionally responsible for producing Red & White Holsteins."
They found a NEW red gene that is a mutation. The Simmentals have a "Wild Gene" that gives our red cattle black around the eyes, nose, tail". It has absolutely nothing to do with the NORMAL recessive red coat color gene.

 

[Brute 23]

Personally the above post scared the bejeebers out of me. The level of irresponsibility is staggering.

All I can say is closed herd....

When you read what people post on here you know why I'm all about keeping heifers, buying outside as little as possible, no matter if it's cattle or hay or what ever. It's a scary world out there.

I'm young but I have been around long enough to see things change. When I was young, if you needed a good dog for hunting or cattle or what ever there were plenty if people you could give a shout, tell them what you need, and probably get one for a fair price. Same with horses or cattle. People culled hard and kept good working animals. Not now... you ask people why they have a certain animal and the answers will shock you and send you running if you have any sense.

 

[Dave]

Seems like that $0.75/pound might be high for CAB premium on slaughter cattle. Average live price on slaughter cattle this week was $1.57.

A quick look the most recent CAB premium I found was from a October Drovers article. It was based on hot carcass weight. It listed carcass weight at 924 pounds. CAB cutout was $269.13. Choice cutout was $253.34. That is a $15.39 spread. That is not per pound it is per cwt. Works out to $142.20 per head. The choice/select spread was $33.71. More than double the premium for CAB. A $311.48 discount for not making choice. That would be a huge reason for feedlot operators to avoid certain cattle that have a higher level of not making choice.

 

[Brute 23]

A quick look the most recent CAB premium I found was from a October Drovers article. It was based on hot carcass weight. It listed carcass weight at 924 pounds. CAB cutout was $269.13. Choice cutout was $253.34. That is a $15.39 spread. That is not per pound it is per cwt. Works out to $142.20 per head. The choice/select spread was $33.71. More than double the premium for CAB. A $311.48 discount for not making choice. That would be a huge reason for feedlot operators to avoid certain cattle that have a higher level of not making choice.

I understand the math on that in the right scenario. The reality is, that spread does not get passed directly to the producer though the auction barn. Chasing that spread in a lot scenarios will leave you highly disappointed, as a producer.

 

[Rmc]

No - WE are talking about NORMAL coat colors. YOU are talking about mutations. The article you gave us for your example (did you read it??) says: "and neither of her confirmed parents were carriers of the recessive red gene traditionally responsible for producing Red & White Holsteins."
They found a NEW red gene that is a mutation. The Simmentals have a "Wild Gene" that gives our red cattle black around the eyes, nose, tail". It has absolutely nothing to do with the NORMAL recessive red coat color gene.

Any coat color other than the original wild type color is a MUTATION . There is no such thing as "normal coat colors " every single one of them is the result of a MUTATION.
Everyone of the 6-8 different polled geneotypes are the result of a mutation. The dominant red mutation in Holsteins is a result of a mutation just like the recessive red color in Holsteins and angus is a result of a mutation. So is the blue mutation in Holsteins. It is estimated that with the next 10-15 years over 50 percent of all Holsteins will be polled.
The genotype that causes natural abortion but results in a huge increase in milk production is a Mutation . It is estimated to be in over 20 percent of Holsteins today.
If you aren't willing to accept the very basic principles of genetics that all coat color other than the wild type coloring are the result of genetic MUTATIONS . Just as all cattle born naturally polled are MUTATIONS regardless of which of the 6-8 geneotypes it is. Then there is zero reason to continue to have a more detailed discussion on genetics. Continue to bury your head in the sand .

 

[Dave]

I understand the math on that in the right scenario. The reality is, that spread does not get passed directly to the producer though the auction barn. Chasing that spread in a lot scenarios will leave you highly disappointed, as a producer.

Well yes and no on that. First we know that the feedlots deal with thousands of head. They also keep much better records. So for example only. Lets say 10% of the Angus calves they feed don't make choice. They lose money on that 10%. Lets say 20% of the Herefords they feed don't make choice. They lose money feeding that 20%. Will they be willing to pay as much for the Herefords as they do for the Angus? There in lies the biggest reason why some calves don't bring as much money as calves of another breed at the sale. the feedlots are not dealing based on the performance of an individual but percentages of a much larger base.

I have heard it said on here that if you think you raise good cattle retain ownership and send them to a feedlot. Some would say they don't want to lose money doing that. Well the feedlots don't want to lose money either. Which is why they aren't willing to pay top money for those calves.