Do red hides get discounted?

[wbvs58]

I'm not saying that inbreeding and line breeding can't be done well and wisely... but most people using these practices have read a book and maybe talked to a friend that heard something, and they take chances. We see the results all the time. Short legged cats, miniature horses and cattle, deaf, blind, and deformed dogs... and people. Everything begins somewhere.

There's a thread on this forum where people have made a lot of comments about Craig's List mini cattle and how they are laughable... yet they get high prices even though they are unproductive and questionably healthy. And there have been some severe anomalies crop up in registered cattle due to lack of understanding and care. And going forward we have learned but I doubt we are fully aware of all issues yet. The people with herds of Precision calves took huge losses although genetic testing helped. Still, a lot of beautiful animals went to slaughter rather than into the breeding population. Genetic defects can hide for generations and can be dominant or recessive, and they can be in a significant number of animals before discovered. All I'm saying is that when the gene pool is limited more care needs to be taken. Caution and being aware are good practices.

Wrong again Travlr. The big majority of cows in seedstock herds that tested +ve for a genetic condition merely got moved over into the commercial herd and bred to bulls that were known clean of the defect and went on to live normal productive lives, they did not go to slaughter. I for one bought a couple of cows that were carriers of AM. They were cows that I would not have been able to afford and one in particular I did very well out of getting a run of heifers that tested clear of AM.
I hold no fear of genetic defects, I am sure more will crop up in the future in Angus and other breeds but nothing to do with the genetic pool that you allude to, it just happens but the tools that are available to us today make it easy to deal with.

Ken

 

[Lucky_P]

So is your claim the black gene in sims is a unique mutation that originated in the sim breed?
If not where did it come from?
Black commercial cows had an angus parent at some point. Unless you can't tell me a different black breed that was used to breed up sims.
If you think that single genes for a single trait sorts independently and you don't have other genes that always sort with it I would I courage you to study a little more in-depth on the subject.

RMC,
Most of the black Simmentals in my herd (purebred, of course, none were fullblooods) traced their black coat color back to a pet Holstein, and a little horned, black, Jersey-cross cow I had back in the 1980s (likely no Angus in her).
In nearly 30 years, I never used a black Simmental AI sire... but the last walking herdbull we had was a homozygous black & polled PB Simmental that had an Angus sire 3 generations back (making him 1/8 Angus)... but I can't find another Angus animal in his pedigree, going back nearly 20 generations; there likely is Angus(or Holstein) farther back'in the woodpile', but it's so far back that most 'Angus' traits, other than black coat color, are indistinguishable.

 

[WFfarm]

30-40 years ago around here many of the small dairy farms would use a Hereford clean up bull. The majority of the beef herds were Hereford and a bull was easy to get. Alot of those Holstein/Herford black baldy calves were kept for beef cows or crossed to get 1/4 or 1/8 Holstein. Just saying Angus is not the only source for black color in breed-up programs.

 

[Lucky_P]

WFfarm
Back around 1990, I had a group of 25 Holstein heifers that I'd raised - and bred to a polled purebred (red/white-faced) Fleckvieh AI sire. Had intended to keep them, but life intervened, and I sold them as springers. The heifers came out of a herd that had a lot of red & white and red-carrier Holstein cows, so there's a possibility that some of those FleckStein calves came out red & white, but I'll bet most were black and white. Surely, some of those FleckStein heifers ended up in someone's beef herd...

 

[greybeard]

That there's more money to be made retired than by raising cattle?

dunno about 'to be made' but 'to be kept' may be accurate...

 

[simme]

My family had a pretty nice registered polled hereford herd for many years. Mostly victor domino. In the 80's, used some canadian hereford bloodlines for growth. Resulted in more growth, but loss of milk. Bought 20 something simmental/holstein heifers to use as recipients to flush one of those hereford cows. First and only flush they did. Embryo work was sort of a new thing and expensive at that time - $7800 for the flush and fresh transfers. Transferred 21 embryos and 17 resulted in pregnancies. Drugs and protocols used at that time generally resulted in more embryos than today. Weaned the calves and took stock of the situation. Sold the herefords. Kept those simmental/holstein 2 year olds and purchased an Alpine Polled Proto son - a simmental bull to breed them to. Had years of diluted cattle. No angus involved.

I have mostly purebred simmental cows (not from the family cattle). I breed to simmental, simangus and angus bulls. I have never owned a registered angus, but they are good cattle. Look at a semen catalog - majority of the bulls will be angus. Look at the number of registrations in the breed registries. Biggest single breed numbers in the US will be angus. If you want to improve the angus, look at the feet - that is where I look. If you want to improve the growth, carcass and marketability of a rainbow herd, angus is a good starting point. No hate of angus on my part. Nor jealousy. Main thing is to breed what you want, have a plan for quality improvement, marketing and efficiency. And do an honest appraisal of how you are doing to meet your goals. If progress is being made, stay the course. If not, evaluate more and keep an open mind. Experience will be your best teacher over the long haul, not google or ask a friend. If you go the ask a friend route, try for friends with experience. That is my story.

 

[Lucky_P]

I'm like Ken, I don't fear genetic defects, and I have had first-hand experience with my very own Angus genetic defect.
Bought a registered Angus bull from a local breeder(a friend and veterinary colleague). Used him as a walking sire for 2 years, then went heavy on AI breeding... but he was a nice, gentle bull who sired really nice calves, so we kept him around as a cleanup bull for 7 years longer. Occasionally, he'd get a chance to breed a direct daughter or granddaughter. Several years out, we had an occasional calf born that couldn't get up, looked kind of 'short-coupled', had a curve in their neck. Had to put them down - but I cut off and froze back an ear from each. As time went by, we had more abnormal calves - not a lot... I think maybe 9 over a 6 year period, out of an 80-cow herd - including 3, the last year, that were by a 2y.o. SimAngus bull, sired by the old Angus bull, that we kept to use one year on heifers. Deformed calves came in both Fall and Spring calving seasons, so the likelihood of a plant toxin was pretty easily ruled out.

We worked with Dr. Jon Beever (then at UofIL), at the behest of AAA, and he identified a defective gene, linked to a known malady, Sodium Channel Neuropathy, in laboratory animals. We tested the entire herd, and approximately half the cows were carriers of the SCN defect. Backtracking, by testing all AI sires behind this bull (a SAF Focus of ER grandson, out of an 878 daughter... so pretty mainstream at the time) did not reveal any carriers in his pedigree, so he was considered the 'founder' of the defect.

Bull went to slaughter at 10 yrs of age, and we dispersed the herd in 2019. No registered animals in the herd other than the young PB Simmental herdsire, unrelated to anything in the herd... so most of the cows - including carriers of the SCN defect - sold as bred commercial cows -and we did not announce defect status at the sale. Was that unscrupulous? I'm not sure, but I guess I've thrown a previously-unknown genetic defect out into the commercial cow herd... where it will most likely just be diluted and disappear over time, since there shouldn't be any bulls out there carrying that defective gene.

 

[50/50Farms]

The shills are gathering and they all know each other.

This is funny, but not for the reason you think it is.

 

[Rmc]

If you think you can get an all black coat color from a piebald type mutation (found in holsteins)some one needs to do more research on the inheritance of coat color genetics.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

If you think you can get an all black coat color from a piebald type mutation (found in holsteins)some one needs to do more research on the inheritance of coat color genetics.

Me thinks a blind man just described an elephant..

 

[Lucky_P]

Base color of black from Holstein? Absolutely. It's the same 'black' as you'd get from black Angus.
Spotting? That's another gene altogether, and requires selection against, if you deem it undesirable.

 

[Rmc]

Base color of black from Holstein? Absolutely. It's the same 'black' as you'd get from black Angus.
Spotting? That's another gene altogether, and requires selection against, if you deem it undesirable.

Not how it works
Do some research on coat color genetics.

 

[Ky hills]

If you breed a Holstein with a Hereford you'll get a black bodied calf with white face, typically more white on legs and underside than with an Angus cross but still a pretty much solid black bodied animal.
Breed a Red Angus or other red breed to a Holstein and a percentage of the calves will be solid black or black with just a little white on the underside or around the navel area

 

[Warren Allison]

If your wife loves Hereford and you want to raise replacement heifers that top the market, especially down here, then get her some Herford cows, and get a Brahma bull. There is NO better selling commercial heifer/cow, than f1 Braford. If y'all want to keep some to raise calves to sell. then there is nothing you can breed to better than a Black Angus bull. I know you don't know everyone on here yet. Neither do I, we both joined at the same time ( though I have been watching these forums for a few years). So, you don't know yet who is actually a knowledgeable cattleman and who is full of bull sh*t. Here is how you can tell: The knowledgeable ones will be the ones you see that "liked" the post and/or posted a positive reply. The ignorant BS-ers will be the one that will reply with an asinine retort with no valid, factual information, but rather a maniacal personal attack. Or a non-sensical reply about suing the AAA, a Constitutional Amendment making it a law that buyers in a competitive bidding war over black calves at a sale, must quit bidding when the bid reaches the level that the highest priced, non-black Prime or Choice calf has brought so far that day. Or a fictional tale about pirates throwing cows off a sip. Sit back and watch. I am buttering some popcorn now.

ROFLMFAO!! Boy, you nailed it! I know exactly who you are talking about! I swear, if some of these people were on trial today...a multi-charge indictment for being intelligent. for being knowledgeable of cattle, and for having commons sense, the prosecution would NOT be able to find enough evidence to convict them!! I have seen some of them argue with vets on here!!!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If you think you can get an all black coat color from a piebald type mutation (found in holsteins)some one needs to do more research on the inheritance of coat color genetics.

I would like to hear your explanation of this statement.
The black gene, red gene, and spotting gene are common genes. Let's hear your research.

 

[alacowman1]

ROFLMFAO!! Boy, you nailed it! I know exactly who you are talking about! I swear, if some of these people were on trial today...a multi-charge indictment for being intelligent. for being knowledgeable of cattle, and for having commons sense, the prosecution would NOT be able to find enough evidence to convict them!! I have seen some of them argue with vets on here!!!

one above is doing it now..

 

[Rmc]

I would like to hear your explanation of this statement.
The black gene, red gene, and spotting gene are common genes. Let's hear your research.

Not my research. The genetics of coat color have been researched heavily since at least the 1950s.
You can't end up with a solid coat color from a piebald color . Not all coat color phenotypes are on the same gene location.
Color genes can affect 3 different phases. 1 basic blue print 2 construction.3 materials used in construction.
There are many different gene locations that can and do contribute to coat color.
there are multiple genes locations that effect coat color.even the "red" color has at least two different gene mutations for the color red one recessive one dominant.
another commonly misunderstood is the fact there are at least two separate gene mutations at different locations for polled. And some research indicates there could be 6-8 All polled cattle are not from the same gene location.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That sounds very fancy - but, we are talking about common breeds. Yes, there are some oddball breeds that have different horn genes and other genes that don't follow the rules..
What are you calling a "piebald color"?
"Normal" beef breeds have "normal" red genes and "normal" black genes and "normal" horned/polled genes. It is not rocket science. Black is a dominant gene over red. Polled is dominant over horned. SPOTTING gene is recessive. You must inherit a spotting gene (BODY SPOTS) from both parents. You can have a spotted animal (like Holsteins and Simmental) and breed to an animal not CARRYING a spotting gene and you will have a SOLID colored offspring. Not rocket science.
Edit: we are NOT talking about MUTATIONS. Stick to a normal conversation about beef cattle.

 

[greybeard]

What are you calling a "piebald color"?

I hear 'piebald' in reference to dogs and horses mostly. It means white on a darker color, in which not only is the hair white (or light) but the skin beneath it has no pigment either. It's pretty common in paint colored Gypsy Vanners/Gypsy Cob horses like the one one the far left in the below photo. The one behind is a standard Paint.

 

[Lucky_P]

Genetics of Coat Color in Cattle

An illustrated page about the inheritance of coat colors and patterns in cattle.

munster.sasktelwebsite.net