Discounts vs premiums

[simme]

I believe those figures are a bit low per another article. No doubt black hided calves make up a vast majority of the market share of US cattle and there are numerous branded products besides CAB, that utilizes "Angus".

Better Beef, Better Demand as Certified Angus Beef Sets Records in 2021 - ProAg

Certified Angus Beef (CAB) announced their second highest sales year on record, totaling 1.215 billion pounds.

www.proag.com

I was looking yesterday for what % of total US beef production was CAB and read the 7 to 8% number. The article you referenced stated that 2021 numbers were 1.2 billion pounds of CAB. Per USDA, 2021 total US beef production was a little under 28 billion pounds. If those numbers are correct, then CAB would only be 1.2/28 = 4.3%. That 28 billion is carcass weight with the retail equilavence being 19.6 billion pounds. Assuming that 1.2 billion pounds is retail, then using the two retail weight numbers, 1.2/19.6 = about 6%. I guess the true numbers are elusive.

CABcattle website does say that 5.9 million carcasses qualified in 2021 and that CAB premiums were $182 million in 2021. That would be only a $31 premium per head. Maybe I read too quickly to digest it all. USDA says 34 million head of cattle slaughtered in US in 2021. 5.9/34 = 17%. May be some black magic in some of those numbers.

USDA ERS - Statistics & Information

For the most current coverage of the livestock industry see the monthly newsletter Livestock, Dairy, and Poultry. See also current cattle and beef industry forecasts and the market context in light of BSE developments.

www.ers.usda.gov

Certified Angus Beef Premiums Record High in 2021 - CAB Cattle

The 2021 aggregate packer CAB premium total has nearly doubled in only two years, resulting in $182 million in CAB premiums.

cabcattle.com

 

[Travlr]

Everybody that knows me, knows that I have been involved with and passionate about raising cattle since I was very young. I've always believed that there is good and bad associated with every breed, and that there is some useful traits within each breed. The thing with the black hide change kinda came to our area seemed like over night. I was working with a herd of registered Charolais, mainly comprised of females and herd bulls bought from longtime area breeders, and was utilizing AI, mainly from a nationally known ranch that was the Charolais equivalent to SAV at the time.
We were coming off of the debacle of the frame race, and the buzzword of the day was moderate. We as breeders were diligently trying to correct the problems and move forward. It just happened so fast, i remember talking with a fellow breeder that everything changed, demand dropped over night seemed like.
Pretty disheartening when you have a field of mostly AI sired bulls, arguably the best I had raised and they were worth less than black commercial steers.
Back in the early nineties semen was any where from $35 to $50 a straw and signing fee of $35 on most of them.
No market for them at all, and previously had always sold out of bulls fairly early
It was more than a fad it was industry changing, No financially feasible way for me to stay that course.
Over the next few years, we watched several large local Hereford, Santa Gertrudis, Charolais herds fold up,
Most just went commercial Angus, The Simmental breeders went from having red and white spotted cattle to black.
Limousins and the new comer at the time to our area Gelbvieh went black.
Years worth of breeding and work from many folks down the drain. Only to start over with mostly lesser quality animals that were the desired color.
Those were largely folks who had been making breeding decisions based on visual appraisal and experience compiled over decades. Now we have experts that make breeding decisions based on an ever changing numbers scheme, and yes by using the AI bull with the best numbers from a hand lull of breeders and all we really know about the bull is a couple sentences of how great he is below a possibly photoshopped image. And if that's not enough most of those bulls will be obsolete by the time their calves are on the ground. I think we were headed that direction with AI even without the black cattle stuff, but it kind of intertwined with the growing popularity of Angus.
There have been some inroads back into the bull market by other breeds. Simmentals are hot in this area, some Black Gelbvieh and balancers, and a few black Limousins. Herefords could have been in a good position, but seems like the mainstream movers and shakers are more focused on raising toads for the show ring than they are production animals.
I've always believed that if you pay attention to birthweights and calving ease, there's no better cross for anything than a Charolais. Sadly a lot of these breeds have lost some of the benefits that brought them to the table in the first place too just like Angus. It's across the board issues with all of them some are stronger than others in some areas and I think we tend to forget that there really isn't an actual curve bender do it all individual or breed even though that was a popular word for a long time.

Where is the standing ovation emoji?

You covered bases I don't, and did it eloquently.

 

[50/50Farms]

And that's kind of what I was getting at. Angus and Angus cross cattle aren't even anywhere near my favorites, but the reality is that it's a black hide fever and people pay for it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Do any of you use Bill Conley's Angus cattle, Missouri?
I know Bill. His breeding ethics and style are extremely similar to mine. His ultimate goal is to make a COW. Great structure, easy keeping baby makers. He has had several top AI bulls like BC Lookout.

 

[Travlr]

Do any of you use Bill Conley's Angus cattle, Missouri?
I know Bill. His breeding ethics and style are extremely similar to mine. His ultimate goal is to make a COW. Great structure, easy keeping baby makers. He has had several top AI bulls like BC Lookout.

Personally, I believe people get sold on the idea that a bull is the only factor of importance and once they get that mindset they expect the bull to do all the work and they tend to get marginal calves. The cow is 50% of what gets good calves and most people would profit from more care in developing their females than they do from picking a bull based on EPDs.

 

[alacowman1]

Do any of you use Bill Conley's Angus cattle, Missouri?
I know Bill. His breeding ethics and style are extremely similar to mine. His ultimate goal is to make a COW. Great structure, easy keeping baby makers. He has had several top AI bulls like BC Lookout.

Don't see many simmental similar to yours..bricks with legs..

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Travlr you are shorting the quality of a great cow. A great cow can be bred to a Billy goat and give you a great calf.
@alacowman1. That was funny, but thank you!! That is my breeding program goal. And, to produce cows that survive/thrive on roughage at my farm or a buyers.

 

[Warren Allison]

Over the next few years, we watched several large local Hereford, Santa Gertrudis, Charolais herds fold up,
Most just went commercial Angus, The Simmental breeders went from having red and white spotted cattle to black.
Limousins and the new comer at the time to our area Gelbvieh went black.
Years worth of breeding and work from many folks down the drain.

You are 100% dead on. KY. And the sad part is, that was so unnecessary to do. All that was needed would be to just breed to a homozygous for black Angus bull. And hell, FASTER! How many years of breeding did it take to turn Simmentals black? You could have kept the original Simm cows and with an Angus bull, accomplished in one year, raising a black, CAB prospective calf crop.

 

[wbvs58]

You didn't get it all wrong. You are just as much a victim of the system as anyone else. Your black cattle are likely to be related to all other black cattle and cruising toward some kind of eventual brick wall. The experts selling CAB will deny it of course, and are working diligently to stay on top of the genetic issues so they don't hit the fan, and maybe they will do well and maybe they won't. Still much easier and safer to have a diverse gene pool... but they are selling high priced bulls so by their standards they are working the system to their advantage. In the meantime your neighbors are putting the same effort and financial inputs into their cattle, producing just as good a product, and if they are not black they are taking a hit at the sale barn.

It's the marketing scheme (scam) that's the problem, not those that take advantage of it.

Should I get some counselling then Travlr, might help me cope with this impending disaster. I might have to look for another breed with a bigger genetic pool than Angus. Can you point me in that direction?

Ken

 

[Ky hills]

Travlr you are shorting the quality of a great cow. A great cow can be bred to a Billy goat and give you a great calf.

I wouldn't go that far on that philosophy, not sure about a goat but it didn't hold up with a toad.
We bought a thick little rascal of a Hereford bull a few years ago at a regional registered sale. Just bought him as a spare as seems like we had a string of problems with bulls at that time. Turned him out to rotate bulls. Just got a few calves by him. Nothing very impressive, including one from one of our better cows at the time that until then had always weaned off a good calf.
Kept it because it was a heifer out of that cow. She raises a decent calf but sure nothing special. We were driving through the cows last spring and my wife saw her and asked me what was that ugly little thing was by, she was surprised when I told her favorite cow was it's mother.

 

[50/50Farms]

My youngest daughter loves Gelbviehs but I sure as hell don't want to buy any.

 

[wbvs58]

Ken, as the one who started this thread, I'll take a moment to clear up some things. There are absolutely a lot of folks like you that have and raise Angus cattle and do well with them. I've always said that I'd just as soon have a good Angus as anything. Everybody's experience is somewhat different, I tried to start up a small registered herd of Angus using the current cattle at the time and wasn't pleased with the overall results. We've used registered Angus bulls for 20 years, so I don't have hatred toward them. I've had plenty of issues with Charolais, Herefords, etc, so definitely no perfect breed. Which brings me to why I made the post, there is so much promotional propaganda about Angus here, that pretty much makes them out to be not only perfect but the only breed worth having and that gets old quick. I've got several friends that are Angus breeders, so certainly no animosity towards them or others. It's the way the marketing turned out and in the long run damaged quality by the loss of good genetics from other breeds, and lost people a lot of money in the process of getting where we are today.
I was actually told a few years ago by a large Angus breeder that he was very frustrated with the issues that were in the breed, same issues that I was seeing in mine. Have also heard others say similar things.
I see your cattle pictures and videos on here, and you have a fine herd of cattle, that anyone would be proud of, so no disrespect meant towards you or any other Angus breeders

That's cool KY, thanks for the reply, no offence taken I was just throwing in a bit of light hearted humour as our old mate Travlr and cohorts get a bit passionate when on the Angus bandwagon and I was just trying to slow down their momentum a bit. Someone new to cattle and just bought an Angus herd could get a bit anxious that they have gone in the wrong direction after reading what was written.

Ken

 

[Ky hills]

You are 100% dead on. KY. And the sad part is, that was so unnecessary to do. All that was needed would be to just breed to a homozygous for black Angus bull. And hell, FASTER! How many years of breeding did it take to turn Simmentals black? You could have kept the original Simm cows and with an Angus bull, accomplished in one year, raising a black, CAB prospective calf crop.

My point appears to have been lost. Yes, that would have turned them black and many did that including me, of course with Charolais it takes longer than one or two generations.
My point again, was that many years of dedication to their respective herds and breeds were lost when turning them black sometimes with lesser quality Angus than what they would have used within their breed.
The great CAB premium lost a lot of folks a lot of money. If you were selling $1500 Charolais or whatever breed bulls and heifers and poof the demand was gone and your other option is to go commercial and sell $500 calves or whatever they were being back then that was not a happy experience. It takes a long time to recoup that if ever.

 

[Travlr]

Travlr you are shorting the quality of a great cow. A great cow can be bred to a Billy goat and give you a great calf.

Well I think that's a stretch... but I'd rather have a herd of great cows and a mediocre bull than have poor cows and a good bull.

Raising replacements was a great education in the value of good mothers in a herd.

 

[alacowman1]

That's cool KY, thanks for the reply, no offence taken I was just throwing in a bit of light hearted humour as our old mate Travlr and cohorts get a bit passionate when on the Angus bandwagon and I was just trying to slow down their momentum a bit. Someone new to cattle and just bought an Angus herd could get a bit anxious that they have gone in the wrong direction after reading what was written.

Ken

I doubt that it will dishearten anyone…

 

[wbvs58]

Buyers will discount on ANYTHING they CAN. That's the business. Right now it's big on color. If you choose to breed to other than black, it is up to you to find your own market that will pay for the quality of what you are producing.
I breed red and black. But, I have my own direct market for my steers. They are buying on quality - not color. But, that is MY responsibility to market MY QUALITY cattle.
"IF" you are raising a quality product, it is up to you to find a market willing to pay for the quality.
You are not locked into Angus - it can be black Simmental, Limousin, etc.

Yes Jeanne, the buyers pay extra for what they feel they can slot into a successfull marketing programme. We have a programme here where you can enter your farm into being eligible for entry into the EU market. It basically means you use no hormonal growth prommotants or other hormones such as estrogens in your breeding. This eligibility is open to all breeds and colours of cattle and will attract a 20-30c/kg or more premium at the weaner sales. It is up to producers and breed societies to develop their own marketing strategies rather than sit on the sideline and whinge about how successfull one particular programme is.

Ken

 

[Warren Allison]

It does, but for baldie replacement females, the ANXHE was a preferred cross more than the HEXAN in an older research paper I read years ago. They are the same, but different. But the PHXAN and HHXAN that we raised at one time were good cattle and sold well.

Some cases it makes a difference. Lot of difference in a mule and a hinny. Or a liger and a tigion. But makes no difference breeding a Percheron stallion to a Belgian mare, of a Belgian stallion to a Percheron mare. The first 2 are mating to different but related species, and the latter is mating different breeds of the same species. it has been noted that using a Brahma bull on a Hereford cow, can result in huge bull calves, where as Hereford on Brahma there isn't that much difference in size for bull and heifer calves. It is a lot cheaper, though, to put a $5k Brahma bull on $1k Hereford cows, than it is to put a $2k Hereford bull on $2500 Brahma cows.

Like you . most of my life I saw more Angus bulls on Hereford cows, than Hereford bulls on Angus cows. One reason I am sure has to do with the price of Angus cows vs Hereford. But another reason is because in general, Hereford cows, as new mothers, are a whole lot more docile than an Angus cow with a new baby. Physically, I couldn't tell a H x A black baldy from a A x H black baldy.

 

[Ebenezer]

Here are a couple of article on non independent assortment of genes. If you search terms such as "linked genes" " non independent assortment of genes" ect you will find thousands of similar articles and research
Here is on on the basics

Genetic Linkage

learn.genetics.utah.edu

And a more in-depth article

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0607280104

My definition of "curve benders" is different than yours.
I am referring to an animal that is outside the genetic norm of the breed or species a "game changer"
Such as the Holstein bull I referred to earlier. He was born back in the early 1970s . The ability for his offspring wasn't an accumulation of already present genes it was a mutation.
It wasn't a gradual change it was a huge and dramatic increase in a desired trait. Many ways to theorize and come to the conclusion it was a mutation. The dramatic change didn't disappear over time ect.
When you select for such traits you get the good with the bad , when you select a specific genetic trait you are also selecting the other genes that are linked to it.

Industry definition:
"Using "curvebender" bulls (low birthweight but aggressive growth to weaning and yearling) through artificial insemination can result in calves being born three weeks earlier than the calculated due date from AI. In fact, many cattlemen report having all their calves from timed AI on the ground before the 283 day mark." source: feedlot magazine

I glanced at the articles. They really didn't have any info that jumped out at me to tell me that a great trait is always linked to a mutation. There are linked traits and linked genes, but the assumption that the great comes with the bad is not clear.

 

[simme]

How many years of breeding did it take to turn Simmentals black? You could have kept the original Simm cows and with an Angus bull, accomplished in one year, raising a black, CAB prospective calf crop.

I believe the original (red/yellow and white fullblood) simmental cows bred to an Angus bull generally produced a gray calf with a lot of white. Due to the dilution gene. I don't think there would have been many to qualify for CAB on that first cross.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It took 3 generations to make some PB Simmentals black. Just start with a commercial black cow or PB Angus.