GWH said: "Frankie, I know I am on the short end of an argument with the kind of gravitas that you bring to cattle discussion, but I can't let this one pass. I am not saying that Angus breeders haven't significantly narrowed the gap, maybe even closed it in some cases, but Herefords for many years were the most efficient cattle made, and I believe they still are. I have a thick envelope of data that you challenged me to produce when I first stuck my nose in these boards. I haven't submitted it because Jack Ward failed to provide the websites etc. where you could go see for yourself, and I am still waiting for more in-depth data. \"
I'm flattered (I think), but I'm not even a guru. I'll take nothing away from Hereford cattle, especially when it comes to rustling a meal on the range. I'm speaking of feed efficiency as in the feedlot. Time spent in the feedlot is probably the most expensive time in a calf's life. I've seen some very good Hereford bulls that will gain in a feedlot setting. I'm not saying they're not out there. But, IMO, too many Hereford breeders are like a friend of mine. He's still PO-ed because the Horned and Polled groups joined together. He has been using Angus bull for a while and is overall happy with the calves. But he holds the Angus cows to a much higher standard than his registered Hereford cows. He has a problem with cancer eye. Some of them have absolutely terrible udders and he ignores it. Some of them don't breed back in a timely manner and he ignores it. He seems to be proud to wean 600 lb Hereford bull calves (and he's supplementing). He selects his Angus bulls by using EPDs. He selects his Hereford bulls by who won the latest show.
"I would suggest a compromise: At this point in time, Herefords and Angus are close enough in efficiency that there is more variation between individuals than there is between the breeds. That leaves several reasons for the black craze: #1, You should be proud of the marketing job they have done; #2 Black cattle ARE troubled less by flies and pinkeye. #3 Black cattle are more easily show prepped. #4 The certified program was a masterpiece. #5 While Angus was unified with their CAB, Hereford folks were still fighting over horned and polled instead of celebrating their options."
#1. I am very proud of the marketing job the AAA has done. But they have good cattle to work with. Did you see the speech by the Gelbvieh rep? He said he had good news and bad news. The good news was that a big time Angus breeder had congratulated him on the marketing program the Gelbvieh Association had in place. The bad news was that Gelbvieh cattle didn't match up to the claims made in that program.
#2. My cows have flies and we've had a case or two of pinkeye. No cancer eye, though.
#3. :?:
#4. CAB is looked upon as a masterpiece today. But for the first ten years or so it nearly broke the Association.
#5. See above. Not everyone thought CAB was a good program. It was almost killed several times before it became profitable.
"Having made these concessions, I still say that we've made great strides on our problems; Roughsedge's 2001 study shows that Hereford bulls are the #1 heterosis cross for breeds across the board, with Gelbveigh getting the most benefit from a Hereford bull, specifically in survival to weaning, 3.49% direct. The Gelbveigh/Angus produces a 2.14% number. The reason given for this is that Herefords are more genetically different than other breeds. Given the BLACK Limis, the BLACK Simis, the BLACK Maines, the BLACK this, and the BLACK that, all of which were brought about by dipping into the fine Angus gene pool, this is no surprise. Let's be totally honest and say that Hereford bulls do stay home better as a whole as well."
OK, it's good that Herefords are doing well. No, I won't give you that. When we ran Angus bulls on commercial cows we had no problem keeping them home. Several of my neigbors use them and don't seem to be chasing them around and hauling them home.
"I don't think anyone who has impartially eaten both Angus and Hereford beef when comparably fed and prepared from animals of comparable quality genetics is going to say that the Angus is any better."
CAB is a higher quality grade than CHB. I believe there's research showing consumers prefer higher quality grade beef over lower quality grade. We also know that Choice beef is more likely to be tender than Select beef. So I'd disagree with this one.
"Angus cows milk heavier as a whole; Hereford cows have a 96% conception rate versus 86% for Angus as a breed average."
Can we have a refrence here? I've never said, nor will I every say every Angus cow (or bull) is a good cow (or bull). But if one uses EPDs wisely, you can improve your chances of buying good cattle.
"All I'm saying is that Angus are not THE BEST in every category. Come on, you have 50 or 60% influence in the nation's cowherds, why begrudge the ole Hereford's 15-30%, depending on the source, moving up five or ten points?"
LOL! I'm not begrudging Hereford (or Simmentals, or Limis, etc) anything. I don't think the cattle business is a competition. There's a demand for all kinds of beef. It's an important part of a breed association's job to educate commercial cattlemen about the good qualities of their breed. The Angus Association has done that well. I would totally agree with you that Angus cattle are not necessarily the best in every category. But they just don't have many downsides.
You'll notice how my simple post disagreeing that Red Angus and Angus are the same was blasted by several people? It's been an on-going thing for years that some people can't promote their breed without bashing Angus. Some of that's to be expected, since Angus is at the top of the heap these days. But many of us remember when they were not in the prominant position theyr'e in today. It's taken years for CAB to be the most recognized branded beef program in the world. CHB became proitable in about five years. Would they have become profitable so quickly if CAB hadn't paved the way? I doubt it. There are more options for producers raising high quality cattle today than ever before and I think that's a good thing. 
