Difference between breeds

[Frankie]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

Frankie, i usually agree w/almost everything you say but this time i have to question you. i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

CAB is a great program, isn't it? IMO, it was a serious mistake for other breeds to crossbreed in trying to make their breed Angus. Most serious cattle producers are smart enough to know if you want Angus traits, you should buy an Angus bull. And the CAB program requirements can be changed if they want to require calves be sired by a registered Angus bull. I think that will happen as mandatory ID is put into place. The CAB "Natural" program already requires traceback ID on the cattle and that they have at least one registered Angus parent. But for years there wasn't enough meat meeting the CAB specs to meet the demand. If that requirement had been in place back then, the brand would not have grown like it has.

 

[SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

I suspect that part of the answer is that a majority of the buyers own,or have interest in black cattle. Why else would their be a price difference in black and red angus unless the buyers were biased to the black hide??

 

[fellersbarnoneranch]

Oh what a can of worms! :shock:

I think I will sign on as a guest every week or so, so we can argue red vs. black! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

If red had been chosen as the preferred color originally, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Red being the recessive gene, would have never produced black cattle unless crossed with a black animal. Who really cares? The country has gone queer and crazy for black. Black Angus, black baldies, black panthers, and black labs. Just a marketing trend; trends change and it doesn't hurt my business anyway.
It's just really not that big of a deal. But I enjoy arguing the case!

Black Angus should be proud to have such a passionate enthusiast!

 

[cattle_gal]

I've mentioned to a couple of people before - Wouldn't life be very dull and non ambitious if we all raised the same thing and breed. What would all of us look forward to if there was nothing to strive for in improvement in the cattle we like.

 

[Lynn36331]

I tried to post to let y'all know that we did buy both of them but my reply never showed up. Anyway, we did buy both of them and will be picking them up this coming Saturday. I won't be going with my husband to get them because part of our purchase was a trade for one of our donkeys. I will be staying home and mostly likely be crying. But, I am excited to get momma and son. I've read all the posts now about red vs black and must say that I'm confused. Did I make a mistake by getting them? Lynn

 

[Jake]

no you didn't, good cattle are good cattle. PERIOD. It's more preference than anything. Red or black doesn't make much difference. Just color and genetic pool make a difference. I'll agree with frankie that they are two different breeds now. they may have evolved from the same but are different now. you'll enjoy these cattle so don't fret about second guesses.

 

[Oldtimer]

I've mentioned to a couple of people before - Wouldn't life be very dull and non ambitious if we all raised the same thing and breed. What would all of us look forward to if there was nothing to strive for in improvement in the cattle we like.

cattle_gal-- I have to agree- Years ago I started breeding everything straight black angus-- Wife told me the cows got "boring looking"-- All black-- Couldn't hardly tell one from the other.... Had to throw some Hereford back in so I could get her some baldies and brockel faces with a little difference to keep as replacements--- Also I'm convinced they are the greatest momma cow made-- But again that is my perception.....

 

[Tod Dague]

I tried to post to let y'all know that we did buy both of them but my reply never showed up. Anyway, we did buy both of them and will be picking them up this coming Saturday. I won't be going with my husband to get them because part of our purchase was a trade for one of our donkeys. I will be staying home and mostly likely be crying. But, I am excited to get momma and son. I've read all the posts now about red vs black and must say that I'm confused. Did I make a mistake by getting them? Lynn

No you didn't. Most people (not all) would agree that Red Angus are good cattle. Everyone has their preference and thinks their breed is the best (why else would they choose them). I sell my culls as freezer beef at a small premium and everyone of my customers enjoy the beef. Welcome to the beef industry. :cboy:

Tod
NTD Red Angus

 

[Frankie]

I tried to post to let y'all know that we did buy both of them but my reply never showed up. Anyway, we did buy both of them and will be picking them up this coming Saturday. I won't be going with my husband to get them because part of our purchase was a trade for one of our donkeys. I will be staying home and mostly likely be crying. But, I am excited to get momma and son. I've read all the posts now about red vs black and must say that I'm confused. Did I make a mistake by getting them? Lynn

Lynn, please understand that I'm not discouraging the use of Red Angus cattle. I'm just disagreeing with others who seem to suggest that the two breeds, Angus and Red Angus, are the same because they derived from the same stocks generations ago. There are good cattle in most breeds, as there are sorry cattle in ALL breeds. In the cattle business, unless you're buying breeding stock, you pays your money and you takes your chances. I'll bet they'll do great. Good luck and keep us posted...

 

[Frankie]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

I suspect that part of the answer is that a majority of the buyers own,or have interest in black cattle. Why else would their be a price difference in black and red angus unless the buyers were biased to the black hide??

The buyers who purchase cattle at the sale barns for feedlots generally have some sort of orders on what to buy and how much they should pay for them. Their "bias" for black hides is not a conspiracy. It's because Angus breeders have been testing bulls for years to produce feed efficient cattle. Cattle that will get through the feedlot quickly and then possibly qualify for the CAB premium (even though I think quality premiums are down because Japan isn't buying our beef anymore).

 

[ollie]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

I suspect that part of the answer is that a majority of the buyers own,or have interest in black cattle. Why else would their be a price difference in black and red angus unless the buyers were biased to the black hide??

The buyers who purchase cattle at the sale barns for feedlots generally have some sort of orders on what to buy and how much they should pay for them. Their "bias" for black hides is not a conspiracy. It's because Angus breeders have been testing bulls for years to produce feed efficient cattle. Cattle that will get through the feedlot quickly and then possibly qualify for the CAB premium (even though I think quality premiums are down because Japan isn't buying our beef anymore).

Frankie is it just me or would LA's theory if it is true be manifested as an order for a set of blacks for more money. Call me stupid but I think this is what they would do. If it were true , and I am not saying it is, I don't think they would say (we have a conspiracy and we are going to pay more for blacks because we sell black bulls.)Do you think angus cattle are more efficient quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for cab than red angus sired calves?

 

[cattle_gal]

I tried to post to let y'all know that we did buy both of them but my reply never showed up. Anyway, we did buy both of them and will be picking them up this coming Saturday. I won't be going with my husband to get them because part of our purchase was a trade for one of our donkeys. I will be staying home and mostly likely be crying. But, I am excited to get momma and son. I've read all the posts now about red vs black and must say that I'm confused. Did I make a mistake by getting them? Lynn

With all the black and red talk on differences I thought I'd get out some information for you to read. Midland Bull Test ultrasounds. Average %IMF :BA=3.80 RA=3.27, ave REA/CWT: BA: 1.01 RA=1.01 , ave Rib Fat: BA= .225 RA= .23, ave REA: BA= 12.2 RA=12.2

 

[greenwillowherefords]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

I suspect that part of the answer is that a majority of the buyers own,or have interest in black cattle. Why else would their be a price difference in black and red angus unless the buyers were biased to the black hide??

The buyers who purchase cattle at the sale barns for feedlots generally have some sort of orders on what to buy and how much they should pay for them. Their "bias" for black hides is not a conspiracy. It's because Angus breeders have been testing bulls for years to produce feed efficient cattle. Cattle that will get through the feedlot quickly and then possibly qualify for the CAB premium (even though I think quality premiums are down because Japan isn't buying our beef anymore).

Frankie, I know I am on the short end of an argument with the kind of gravitas that you bring to cattle discussion, but I can't let this one pass. I am not saying that Angus breeders haven't significantly narrowed the gap, maybe even closed it in some cases, but Herefords for many years were the most efficient cattle made, and I believe they still are. I have a thick envelope of data that you challenged me to produce when I first stuck my nose in these boards. I haven't submitted it because Jack Ward failed to provide the websites etc. where you could go see for yourself, and I am still waiting for more in-depth data.

I would suggest a compromise: At this point in time, Herefords and Angus are close enough in efficiency that there is more variation between individuals than there is between the breeds. That leaves several reasons for the black craze: #1, You should be proud of the marketing job they have done; #2 Black cattle ARE troubled less by flies and pinkeye. #3 Black cattle are more easily show prepped. #4 The certified program was a masterpiece. #5 While Angus was unified with their CAB, Hereford folks were still fighting over horned and polled instead of celebrating their options.

Having made these concessions, I still say that we've made great strides on our problems; Roughsedge's 2001 study shows that Hereford bulls are the #1 heterosis cross for breeds across the board, with Gelbveigh getting the most benefit from a Hereford bull, specifically in survival to weaning, 3.49% direct. The Gelbveigh/Angus produces a 2.14% number. The reason given for this is that Herefords are more genetically different than other breeds. Given the BLACK Limis, the BLACK Simis, the BLACK Maines, the BLACK this, and the BLACK that, all of which were brought about by dipping into the fine Angus gene pool, this is no surprise. Let's be totally honest and say that Hereford bulls do stay home better as a whole as well.

I don't think anyone who has impartially eaten both Angus and Hereford beef when comparably fed and prepared from animals of comparable quality genetics is going to say that the Angus is any better.

Angus cows milk heavier as a whole; Hereford cows have a 96% conception rate versus 86% for Angus as a breed average.

All I'm saying is that Angus are not THE BEST in every category. Come on, you have 50 or 60% influence in the nation's cowherds, why begrudge the ole Hereford's 15-30%, depending on the source, moving up five or ten points?

Sorry for butting into this red/black Angus discussion everyone!

 

[Texan]

That leaves several reasons for the black craze: #1, You should be proud of the marketing job they have done; #2 Black cattle ARE troubled less by flies and pinkeye. #3 Black cattle are more easily show prepped. #4 The certified program was a masterpiece. #5 While Angus was unified with their CAB, Hereford folks were still fighting over horned and polled instead of celebrating their options.

Willow, why do you think there has to be several reasons? In my opinion, it all comes back to one reason. Higher value brought on by CAB. And for your information, black cattle tend to have more flies, not less. At least, that's the way its always been for me. That's why I like to run two or three blacks. That way I only have to spray two or three cows instead of all of 'em. ;-)

As for your reason #3, are you serious? Please tell us that's a joke! Do you think my neighbor has a pasture full of blacks because they're "more easily show prepped?" Do you think calf and yearling buyers have more money on black orders because they're "more easily show prepped?"

 

[mtnman]

Frankie said----->

Are you sure? Why not a red cow carrying one black gene bred to a red bull carrying a black gene? Why couldn't they have a black calf? As I understand it, the only requirement for registering as Red Angus is one red gene. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Hmmmmmmmm, I think you better reread this one Frankie. You missed the boat.

mtnman

 

[ollie]

As for maternal traits, there's a reason the nation's cowherd has turned black. It's because a good Angus momma cow is hard to beat.

i won't disagree that Angus momma cows may be hard to beat, but i don't think that's the reason the cowherd has turned black.

the reason can probably still be attributed to the Angus but more to their marketing program than anything else. the cowherd has turned black to "appear" angus & ride on the coat-tails of that excellent marketing program.

I suspect that part of the answer is that a majority of the buyers own,or have interest in black cattle. Why else would their be a price difference in black and red angus unless the buyers were biased to the black hide??

The buyers who purchase cattle at the sale barns for feedlots generally have some sort of orders on what to buy and how much they should pay for them. Their "bias" for black hides is not a conspiracy. It's because Angus breeders have been testing bulls for years to produce feed efficient cattle. Cattle that will get through the feedlot quickly and then possibly qualify for the CAB premium (even though I think quality premiums are down because Japan isn't buying our beef anymore).

Frankie is it just me or would LA's theory if it is true be manifested as an order for a set of blacks for more money. Call me stupid but I think this is what they would do. If it were true , and I am not saying it is, I don't think they would say (we have a conspiracy and we are going to pay more for blacks because we sell black bulls.)Do you think angus cattle are more efficient quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for cab than red angus sired calves?

Well as I reread the whole thread it is mr. Springer with the statement that I quoted not LA. Either way ... Just for the record I don't believe that red cattle are better than blacks or vise/versa. I believe good cattle are better than sorry ones and like I have said before, I would rather have a set of good (you insert breed) than a sorry set of (your favorite breed here).

 

[dun]

" Red angus cows only have black babies when bred to a black animal."

Are you sure? Why not a red cow carrying one black gene bred to a red bull carrying a black gene? Why couldn't they have a black calf? As I understand it, the only requirement for registering as Red Angus is one red gene. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In order to be registered as Red Angus they have to be red. If they carry one black gene they are black. Two reds will alwasy throw red. When you throw in the heterozugous red and black from either sire or dam or both you start getting some reds and some blacks.

dun

 

[Frankie]

Ollie said "Frankie is it just me or would LA's theory if it is true be manifested as an order for a set of blacks for more money. Call me stupid but I think this is what they would do. If it were true , and I am not saying it is, I don't think they would say (we have a conspiracy and we are going to pay more for blacks because we sell black bulls.)Do you think angus cattle are more efficient quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for cab than red angus sired calves?"

I'm not sure that I understand your first question, Ollie. I know in talking to some buyers, they leave for work every morning with orders to buy the best cattle they can within certain price ranges. They will pay more for good black calves than they will pay for good red calves; they will pay more for sorry black calves than for sorry red calves. They hope to make up the difference on feed efficiency and carcass premiums.

Yes, I think Angus cattle are more efficient, quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for CAB than Red Angus sired cattle. That's an opinion; I admit to being totally biased. When we started testing our Angus bulls 12-15 years ago, a producer could hope to top a test with a bull that gained four pounds a day. Today you need 5 lbs per day to top most tests and it's no longer unusual to find a bull gaining 6 lbs per day. Feedlot ADG is a very important traits in a beef animal. Angus have always been known for feed lot performance and lots of breeders are working to improve it.

 

[Frankie]

I tried to post to let y'all know that we did buy both of them but my reply never showed up. Anyway, we did buy both of them and will be picking them up this coming Saturday. I won't be going with my husband to get them because part of our purchase was a trade for one of our donkeys. I will be staying home and mostly likely be crying. But, I am excited to get momma and son. I've read all the posts now about red vs black and must say that I'm confused. Did I make a mistake by getting them? Lynn

With all the black and red talk on differences I thought I'd get out some information for you to read. Midland Bull Test ultrasounds. Average %IMF :BA=3.80 RA=3.27, ave REA/CWT: BA: 1.01 RA=1.01 , ave Rib Fat: BA= .225 RA= .23, ave REA: BA= 12.2 RA=12.2

Interesting. Is that a final repor from a current testt? Can you tell us how many bulls from each breed? And what about Average Daily Gain of the two breeds?

 

[ollie]

Ollie said "Frankie is it just me or would LA's theory if it is true be manifested as an order for a set of blacks for more money. Call me stupid but I think this is what they would do. If it were true , and I am not saying it is, I don't think they would say (we have a conspiracy and we are going to pay more for blacks because we sell black bulls.)Do you think angus cattle are more efficient quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for cab than red angus sired calves?"

I'm not sure that I understand your first question, Ollie. I know in talking to some buyers, they leave for work every morning with orders to buy the best cattle they can within certain price ranges. They will pay more for good black calves than they will pay for good red calves; they will pay more for sorry black calves than for sorry red calves. They hope to make up the difference on feed efficiency and carcass premiums.

Yes, I think Angus cattle are more efficient, quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for CAB than Red Angus sired cattle. That's an opinion; I admit to being totally biased. When we started testing our Angus bulls 12-15 years ago, a producer could hope to top a test with a bull that gained four pounds a day. Today you need 5 lbs per day to top most tests and it's no longer unusual to find a bull gaining 6 lbs per day. Feedlot ADG is a very important traits in a beef animal. Angus have always been known for feed lot performance and lots of breeders are working to improve it.

Frankie do you also think that Angus (black) are more efficient , quicker maturing and more likely to qualify for CAB than 50% black angus cattle and 50% (say south devon for the sake of argument.)