Deer Valley....

[elkwc]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

I know there are those on both sides of the rapid turn over practice. I have considered some of their genetics in the past but likely won't in the future because of this practice. There is no way for them to know if their cattle have longtivity or long term structural soundness. Both important traits for me.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have heard nothing but good things about DVF. Apparently, they have decided to sale every female they have over 3 years old between this sale and the fall sale... some pretty big time donors and herd builders for sale, at least in my opinion.

Just curious, why would they clear out EVERYTHING over 3 years old? A large percentage of them are sired by Ten X, is there something they know that everyone else doesn't?

Several members on here are not fans of Ten X or MYYTY in Focus. I've had no problems with either. But then again I disagree with most members. LOL!

I would probably go for the Connealy Capitalist daughter if I were in the market. I saw one about halfway in the sale book.

My guess is that DVF trust their breeding decisions. If you make the right breeding decisions your heifers should be the best animals in your herd. Branded, why not sell everything over 3 years of age? And what do you feel is the downfalls of doing so?

Please don't construe what I say as a judgment call against DVF.

I personally, like to have a herd that is made up of different ages, I run young cattle with ones that are old as dirt. Think about having granddaughter, mom, grandmother, and possibly great grandmother together. I know members on CT will laugh, but there are studies on hierarchy in cattle and it's effects on heifers performance, also I have my own observations.

In addition if I have a cow, which I have more than a handful that are over 14 years old, I can pay close attention to what is holding up and what is falling apart. I'm one who likes to see if they can stand the test of time, especially with feet. You cannot tell how feet will hold up if they are out the door at 3 years old.

I keep in mind that whoever is buying from me might not be rotating females out at that rate and might want an cow that can be used for many years, and problem free at that.

Another reason is that I'm trying to focus on producing pathfinders. Stone Gate for example, has a lot of pathfinders if you look up what they have split amongst the owners in their overall operation. That tells me that they have excellent cows, that perform. Unless I'm wrong, you can't get a Pathfinder as a heifer.

I don't have any pathfinders that I have produced yet. When you look at newer operations in Kentucky, even Boyd's, they don't have the sheer number of pathfinders in their herds that Stone Gate does. I think this is a function of selling cows quickly and never seeing what develops. Stone Gate has clients that wouldn't buy from anywhere else, and that is from multiple generations, that didn't happen overnight. My hunch is that their cows made people money long term.

True, it may put more money in your pocket short term to sell them out at 3 years old, and it would sure be nice to get a big check, but if anything I would keep my older females around as recips so that I don't have to buy them. It still takes a great cow to raise a great calf whether it's her own or ET.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

 

[Ky hills]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I personally, like to have a herd that is made up of different ages, I run young cattle with ones that are old as dirt. Think about having granddaughter, mom, grandmother, and possibly great grandmother together. I know members on CT will laugh, but there are studies on hierarchy in cattle and it's effects on heifers performance, also I have my own observations.

I don't have any quantifiable data but I like seeing the social groups of related females and it SEEMS like they do well. I am sure the older cows teach the daughters about the local environment and while we aren't the roughest country cattle exist in, we sure aren't easy, rolling, ever green pastures 10 cows to the acre, like some of you seem to have!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

I'm getting ready to collect embryos soon on a 17 year old cow that has excellent feet, arrow straight back and is easy to settle year after year. Right now I have a Raindance daughter from her that I'm about to wean.

Will probably take those eggs and use sexed SAV Extension on them, as well as Raindance, and try to get a lot more daughters.

Right now I have an International son from her 14 year old daughter. I have a pretty good idea that he will put longevity into everything he touches, as well as really top feet.

Some operations out there haven't even been around as long as my oldest cow.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I'm still surprised that BH would even entertain the thought of a Connealy Capitalist daughter. I figured that was the direct opposite direction you were headed in.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

I know there are those on both sides of the rapid turn over practice. I have considered some of their genetics in the past but likely won't in the future because of this practice. There is no way for them to know if their cattle have longtivity or long term structural soundness. Both important traits for me.

DNA, EPD'S, and word of mouth will tell you more than anything else. I've never met a breeder that will tell you this line of our cattle breaks down, and that breeding didn't work out. When there's a miss match and things don't work out a breeder just moves away from the problem. All breeder's are like Branded, they think all their cows are good, and some are just better than others. Which I know is a LIE. One breeder that I really respect told me that a Charlo bull that they had, and I wanted "throws his front leg a little" when I said the bull doesn't move easy and freely.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Deer Valley Farms has rolled their cows every 5 years, now DVF is going to roll their cows every 3 years. I way I understood it was DVF is going to have the same numbers just younger. Good read.
http://www.deervalleyfarm.com/about-us/history/

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

 

[Ky hills]

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

I can't speak for Branded, but if I have a cow that's got some age on her but still raising a good calf and calving back regularly, unless I thought she was getting to the point that she couldn't I don't see any need to cull her. I can make more money selling bred heifers than middle aged cows. My idea is to keep a cow until there is a reason to cull and I am fairly ruthless when it comes to culling. There are not many cows that are still going to be productive at 20, my opinion if they are that is a darn good cow. The way I see it it costs me every time that I have to cull a young cow and replace it with a heifer. I could have either sold the heifer for more or would have to buy one for more money Than I sold the cow. If anybody is real good at it I suppose buying bred cows or cows and calves would be an angle, but that has been a roll of the dice more so than heifers for me.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm still surprised that BH would even entertain the thought of a Connealy Capitalist daughter. I figured that was the direct opposite direction you were headed in.

I've got a couple of Capitalist daughters and they are very nice. One is pretty far along with a President calf in her. I will get you some pics of her soon. She's a big gal.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I'm still surprised that BH would even entertain the thought of a Connealy Capitalist daughter. I figured that was the direct opposite direction you were headed in.

I've got a couple of Capitalist daughters and they are very nice. One is pretty far along with a President calf in her. I will get you some pics of her soon. She's a big gal.

I'd like to see her. I really like the capitalist females I have seen. Most were moderate and thick.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

I for one would love to see some of mine reach 20 years of age. Then put you right in front of her and say "see that cow and her AI calf, she's 20" then say, "I've got a bunch of females either from her or descendants of her out of top AI sires, let's go have a look see"

Where's the bullsh.t in that?

Just like in humans, when you see someone reach 100+ years old, you can be fairly assured that they had decent genes.

When you see a cow that is 20 years old and she can still have a calf, with AI at that, she's a keeper in my book, she earned the gold medal, and I'm looking for gold medal winners not bronze.

I can't deny life would be easier to pump them out like a factory and only keep heifers, but fast is not always best.

Doing things slow and methodical is laughed at these days. I'm absolutely not against new genetics or new technologies, but I am against playing for short money. Most seed stock operations flop in less than 7 years and there is a clear reason why they do.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I've got a few left,I wish were still 20...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"I'm getting ready to collect embryos soon on a 17 year old cow that has excellent feet, arrow straight back and is easy to settle year after year. Right now I have a Raindance daughter from her that I'm about to wean."
James, I'm not sure I'm reading your statement correctly. If she is getting ready to wean a calf, wouldn't she be 4 or 5 months pregnant? and if so, she would be too far along for IVF wouldn't she? I've never done IVF, but I had a guy come to one of our meetings about it and he said once the calf was over the shelf and they couldn't "pick it up", they couldn't flush the cow.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Deer Valley Farms management style might come back to hurt them, I guess time will tell. It's amazing to me to see the progress and the quality of animals some breeders have made in a short period of time. The owner of DVF is no dummy and knows how to make money.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Mr. Clark is very sharp, got out of Limousines didn't he?

 

[wbvs58]

Selling the entire female herd over 3 years is a great marketing strategy. Buyers can be confident that everything is for sale and so will compete for the genetics. With other types of female sales there is always the perception that they are holding onto their good ones and just selling their duds, I know that most on here would be sceptical and suspicious.

These big operations will already have their tanks full of the embryos they want from the best cows so it is time to move on all cashed up.

Ken

 

[True Grit Farms]

Mr. Clark is very sharp, got out of Limousines didn't he?

I thought it was Dr Clark? I don't know if you caught this when Cook and I met you at DVF. The AI and ET technician at DVF use to work for John 15 years ago.

 

[TNRiver]

Very interesting thread.. anybody hear any reports from the sale? It's not on AAA yet