Cross breeding system

[Badlands]

I'm not calling you a liar, BRG.

I just know there is more to the story than you are expressing.

There always is when we hear about these extreme examples.

Now we see more of the story.

When it get's down to it, that is where the truth is.

The rest of the story is that you bought cull cows, moved them from their home to a place a couple hundred miles away. It is no wonder there is variation in performance in that scenario on the first years crop. That is due to phenotypic changes the cows underwent, NOT genetics. You bought them after a drought year, so the calving season was spread out, resulting in a wide variation in WW, coupled with the cows adapting to their new environment.

I would pick another ranch to talk about, rather than the Padlock if you want to talk about consistency/inconsistency.

No, BRG, you are not a liar, you just aren't looking at everything that can affect the variation of the crop. You picked genetics, but that is the small part of the picture.

Badlands

 

[BRG]

The cow we bought were not cull cows. We got choice from everyone of their 3 year olds. My Dad and brother went out there and hand picked ours and the other guys cattle.

The calving season was not drug out at all. We chose from different breeding seasons. We took only April calvers, while the other guy took only May calvers. They were accurate as well.

The genetics were the problem. They were extremely fine boned and flat muscled the first year. Enviroment don't play into that.

Try again.

 

[Badlands]

BRG,

I can't say any more.

I have a little more understanding of the situation than you do, even though you bought the cows. ;-)


Badlands

 

[BRG]

We will have to agree to disagree. So you believe what you want, and I will believe what actually happened.

 

[Badlands]

LOL, BRG, we will have to agree to disagree.

You don't have the whole story.

Badlands

 

[Aero]

Crossbred cattle are NOT more variable than purebreds

in fact, F1's should be less variable than their parents.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

BRG,

I can't say any more.

I have a little more understanding of the situation than you do, even though you bought the cows. ;-)


Badlands

you scare me sometimes badlands are you the CIA of the cattle industry

 

[Badlands]

No, alacowman, I do some private consulting with a number of commercial and purebred breeders.




Badlands

 

[Northern Rancher]

References?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

References?

i think the key word is { private} consulting

 

[Badlands]

You think correctly, alacowman.

Hence the phrase "I can't say any more."



Badlands

 

[smnherf]

You concept results in having a bunch of cattle that are 1/2Angus/1/2Hereford, then some others that are 1/4Angus/3/4Hereford, then some that are 3/4Angus/1/4Hereford, then some old cows that would be 1/8Angus/7/8Hereford, and some old cows that are 7/8Angus/1/8Hereford.

This is where the thought comes in that crossbreeding procuduces more variation than purebreeding-look at all the different types of cattle you have.

This is because you don't change the cows everytime you change the bulls, so the cow herd composition changes over time.


With my system, you will always have 50%Angus in every animal.

Badlands

So is the goal to provide heterosis or is the goal to maintain 50% Angus in the herd? I will beat you for heterosis, fertility and feed efficiency and I will disagree vehemently about having different biological types in the cowherd. Angus and Hereford are a lot closer in biological type than Angus and Gelveih or Simmental and in a crossbreeding situation you cannnot control which genes are transmitted to which calf. You will get some calves that will look like traditional Angus and some calves that will exhibit more Simmi and Gelveih traits and everything in between. In theory, you are right that every cow will have 50% angus in her, but genetics doesn't always work that way.

I have a customer that used the balancer deal and the calves were way more variable than the Hereford sired calves and they werent' as heavy either, plus they had to put up with the terrible dispositions of the bulls.

I have another that used to use several Chiangus bull and it was the same story. Hereford sired calves were heavier and lot less outs or dinks plus the bulls are a whole lot easier to work with.

But thats ok, the "in" thing in this industry is to use these crossbred bulls on crossbred cows, but when these herds need to straighten themselves out and need a shot of true heterosis, feed efficiency and better dispositions, these Hereford bulls will fire really well on those type of cows. I can't wait.

Heterosis in your cowherd and your calf crop will make you a whole lot more money than having the heterosis in your bull ever will.

Brian

 

[BRG]

Well said!

 

[Northern Rancher]

Come on now men old Badlands knows more about your cows than you ever will-so smarten up lol. I'd challenge him to walk into my pen of cattle on feed and tell me which are which-You can cross phenotypically similar Hereford/Angus cattle till the cows come home and not go far wrong. Mind you boiled over rehash's of Jim Leachman's OMC program are the in thing lately. Actually the truth be known there are some pretty successful outfits who are paying the bills with both systems. It all comes down to whose calling the shots- i do a bit of 'private' consulting meself. Composite bulls work ok if you use superior individuals of the purebreeds you are crossing -not many outfits that sell purbred and xbred bulls use their best individuals to produce crossbred bulls. The outfits that do best up here raise their own from home raised cows that have thrived under their particular management.

 

[Badlands]

Well, the big difference between opinions here is between 2 purebred breeders and one guy with a few purebreds, but mostly commercial cows.

Nuff said.


Badlands

 

[Northern Rancher]

HUH!!!

 

[VanC]

Here is an example of cross bred bulls to straight blood bulls.

About 8 years ago, we bought 4 pot loads and a guy about 40 miles east bought another 5 potloads of cows that were a cross of 25% Hereford, 50% Red Angus, & 25% Shorthorn. These cows were bred back to the same composite bulls. That first years we had about 150 head and the other guy had about 190 head of DINKS. They were weaned off at around 200 days and they were the sorriest set of calves I had seen. They weighed on average 350 lbs at this age and ranged from 225 to 600 lbs, and they sold in 5 small packages. The next year we bred them to our own Red Angus bulls and it was like night and day. The weighed on averaged 560 lbs and the steers fit right in with our other cattle we were selling. They sold in 2 groups. That is 210 lbs of extra weight and made our groups more even, all because we used good straight blood bulls. I'd like to say it was all because of our bulls, part of it probably was, but I think it was mainly due to straight blood bulls putting some consistancy back into the cattle.

Oh I forgot to mention, that the buyer who bought these calves the second year, is now one of the feedlots that we work with when placing our customers calves into lots.

BRG- Could at least some of the difference you saw be because of the quality of the composite bulls and not just the fact that they were composites? After all, we know there can be a great deal of variation between animals of the same breed. Why would composites be any different?

 

[BRG]

I am sure some of it could be, but on the same note, the bulls we used on them were not our best either. We sell our better end and keep the middle ones for our commercial use.

Although, I do feel our average bulls are better than the majority out there. ;-)

 

[VanC]

I am sure some of it could be, but on the same note, the bulls we used on them were not our best either. We sell our better end and keep the middle ones for our commercial use.

Although, I do feel our average bulls are better than the majority out there. ;-)

Not that I would buy a bull sight unseen, but from what I see and read on your website, you may be right. ;-)

 

[BRG]

Thanks, I appreciate it!!!