Cross breeding system

[Buckeye Angus]

I currently own a small registered angus herd along with some comercial angus hereford cross cows. I am thinking about starting a new cross breeding system and was thinking about using Angus Gelbvieh Hereford and then i cant think of another breed to maximize hybred vigor. Ang suggestions?

 

[Caustic Burno]

I currently own a small registered angus herd along with some comercial angus hereford cross cows. I am thinking about starting a new cross breeding system and was thinking about using Angus Gelbvieh Hereford and then i cant think of another breed to maximize hybred vigor. Ang suggestions?

Put a Char on those Black baldie mommas and make smokey baldies should ring the bell at the salebarn. That cross should put some zing in those calfs. I would forget those German Limms.

 

[Buckeye Angus]

I currently own a small registered angus herd along with some comercial angus hereford cross cows. I am thinking about starting a new cross breeding system and was thinking about using Angus Gelbvieh Hereford and then i cant think of another breed to maximize hybred vigor. Ang suggestions?

Put a Char on those Black baldie mommas and make smokey baldies should ring the bell at the salebarn. That cross should put some zing in those calfs. I would forget those German Limms.

I liKe char but if i use herefords im concerned that i could get alot of different color paterns and colors and i want to keep frame size under control. I dont feed grain to cows and hay is only fed during times when ice limits grazing.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I currently own a small registered angus herd along with some comercial angus hereford cross cows. I am thinking about starting a new cross breeding system and was thinking about using Angus Gelbvieh Hereford and then i cant think of another breed to maximize hybred vigor. Ang suggestions?

Put a Char on those Black baldie mommas and make smokey baldies should ring the bell at the salebarn. That cross should put some zing in those calfs. I would forget those German Limms.

I liKe char but if i use herefords im concerned that i could get alot of different color paterns and colors and i want to keep frame size under control. I dont feed grain to cows and hay is only fed during times when ice limits grazing.

Char on Herf is the No1 to No2 selling calf here the high yellow baldies and the black baldies are always jumping back and forth to first followed by the smokeys.

 

[Buckeye Angus]

I currently own a small registered angus herd along with some comercial angus hereford cross cows. I am thinking about starting a new cross breeding system and was thinking about using Angus Gelbvieh Hereford and then i cant think of another breed to maximize hybred vigor. Ang suggestions?

Put a Char on those Black baldie mommas and make smokey baldies should ring the bell at the salebarn. That cross should put some zing in those calfs. I would forget those German Limms.

I liKe char but if i use herefords im concerned that i could get alot of different color paterns and colors and i want to keep frame size under control. I dont feed grain to cows and hay is only fed during times when ice limits grazing.

Char on Herf is the No1 to No2 selling calf here the high yellow baldies and the black baldies are always jumping back and forth to first followed by the smokeys.

But if i want to have a set of calves that will all be consistant is my only problem. I love Char X hereford cattle too though. thanks for the advice. Any other ideas?

 

[certherfbeef]

Caustic, the smokey calves don't sell real well here. At least in my neck of these woods.

Buckeye, if it were me...I'd throw in a moderate framed homo black simmental into the mix. Consistent color pattern, great mammas yet the terminal calves sell well here.

Your original 3 breeds sound like a great cross. Good luck to ya.

 

[Badlands]

Don't maximize hybrid vigor.

Manage it, and use it, optimize it.


Badlands

 

[BRG]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Good post Badlands.

Throw to much in the mix and you will get a mess, seen it done over and over again.

 

[BRG]

I would either use an Angus or Charlais. Make and sell replacements with the Angus or sell great feeders with the Charlais. They both work as good or better than nearly anything else.

 

[Badlands]

If you are going to keep replacements, you need to realize that you can't mate every cow to the "right" bull and get a uniform crop, you are only dealing with a small number of animals.

Therefore, you need a system that you can put in place without worrying about age overlap of different breed types of cattle. The cows will be there for 8-10 years or more, so the decisions you make today, you have to deal with for a long time.

If you strat messing with more than one breed and then change sires every 4 years or so, then you will have cows of several breed types spread out over 10 years.

Therefore, if you are going to sell all the calves, it doesn't matter what you do, but a Continental bull with best optimize the marbling and YG antagonisms.

If you are going to keep heifers, then there is only one thing to do with the small numbers you have.

You need to buy some sort of an Angus or Red Angus cross bull. Gelbviehx, or Simmentalx would be my picks.

In this system, you can trade for the othe next time and not lose uniformity. Buy at Gelbvieh/Angus bull this time and a Simmental/Angus bull next time. The Angus percentage remaining constant will keep the British/Continental percentages constant overtime, so you will not lose uniformity. Every calf will be 50% Angus, a little more since that is where you are starting from. I say Angus, I mean Angus, Red Angus, or some other British breed crossed with the Gelbvieh or Simmental.

If you pick bulls that have the same "look" regardless of the breed, you won't lose uniformity.

Don't worry too much about the folks that say you shouldn't use crossbred bulls. Most of them just have purebred bulls to sell you, or they run upgraded commercial herds, basically upgraded Angus of Hereford for the most part. In other words, don't listen to the ones who CAN'T run a crossbreeding system, listen to the ones who CAN.

The systems I have described above actually bring a little less heterosis to the system than if you used Angus and Gelbvieh or Simmental in a 2 breed rotation. But, the percentages of the breeds are constant over time, so you don't get the flipflop of differing biological types of cattle in the same herd.

Crossbred cattle are NOT more variable than purebreds, but a bad crossbreeding system can produce swings in biological type within herd that results in lots of different percentages of each breed being produced. This is mistaken for non-uniformity. Big difference.

Badlands

 

[SoTX Cwby]

I agree with Badlands for what you are trying to accomplish I would try a good Balancer, Santa Cruz or Simangus cross. I think any of these would help you produce a fine terminal cross for your area.

 

[BRG]

I would not use a sim angus bull on these. You already have white markings from the Hereford, you put a simmi on it and you will have more OUT cattle than you can afford.

You will also get Rat Tails from the Simmi and Gelbvieh cross, these will also be OUT cattle. The Charlais I mentioned will give you some as well, but I don't think you will get quite as many out of this cross.

As far as using cross bred bulls. I have seen some complete wrecks. Unless you have a plan and stick to it and don't change with the wind, you can maybe make it work. But, most of the ranchers that I have visited with have tried cross bred bulls, and now they are back to using a 2 way cross with purebred bulls because for them, it just works better and is easier to manage. Several have even gone back to not crossing at all. Most have either Red Angus or Black Angus cows, and then go back on them with either Angus or a continental breed, but not a cross between the 2. Nearly all have said that they get bw from 60lbs to 120lbs out of the same bull, and then the weaning weights come in with a big separation as well. When weaning weights are 75 lbs apart from each other, then you sell in smaller groups or packages. The less cattle you sell in a group the less $ you will get per lbs.

You might be able to get a few more lbs if you plan everything perfectly and everything goes as planned, but you also have to think about selling day, and will my customers like these calves and will they come back and buy them again next year. Will I get more $ if my calves are a little heavier or will I get more $ if I have a more uniform crop.(no color markings that will be pulled, 75 to 100 lbs weaning difference, Rat Tails that will be pulled, etc.)

To me a group of Angus cows and a Charlais bull on them will give you more pounds and a uniform crop. But then again I have been wrong before.

 

[certherfbeef]

:roll: :roll:

Check your private message Buckeye.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Don't maximize hybrid vigor.

Manage it, and use it, optimize it.


Badlands

thats for sure. folks tend to work heterosis to death . instead of using it to there advantage.

 

[Badlands]

You won't get rat-tails with Black Gelbvieh and Black Simmental, it is genetically impossible. If you keep them solid black, white is not a problem.

You will get exponentially more rat-tails from the Charolais than the other two I said, as long as you keep them black. I don't even know if exponentially works, coming from 0 to any number is even bigger than exponential.


Crossbred bulls have the same genetics as crossbred cows! LOL, why would a bull produce more variation and a cow less?

I always like to analyze data from guys who have all these "uniformity" problems. Been doing it for going on ten years. The funny part is, when all is said and done, the problems they thought were bad weren't, and the uniformity they thought they were gaining by straightbreeding was actually non-existant.

In other words, they never really prove that the crossbred bulls threw the lack of uniformity (and it is NEVER as bad as they make it sound first hand, and 2nd hand is worse), and when comparing the striaghtbred calves to the crossbred in the herds with records, the straightbreds are always more variable in performance. If you deal with numbers to look at, rather than opinion and sales pitch, these things work right out.

Of course, it is kind of funny sometimes, how guys with anywhere from 3 - 30 bulls in the pasture all know who sired what calf.

Badlands

 

[BRG]

White will be a problem because the gene is still there. I have seen it.

Maybe you are right about the Rat Tail, don't know for sure, but I have seen Rat Tails from Simmi bulls on Black cows. Maybe their is something else in the mix.

You are right cross bred bulls do have the same as cross bred cows, but don't throw another cross in on top of the crosses you already have.

Your last comment proves my point by having a plan and sticking to it. Yes several guys may have several different breeds or crosses of bulls in one pasture, and then their is no crossbred or straight bred system that will take you to the next level. But for these guys, if they would use a straight blood bull on their already mix of cows, you will get a more even set of calves than by throwing another cross on a mix of several different breeds already.

But like I said, YOU MUST THINK ABOUT WHAT WILL SELL THE BEST. If you don't look ahead instead of right now, you will get left behind. Your buyers will not even look at your calves next year if they didn't like them this year. The cattle buyer looks for reasons to pull a calf out of the bunch, why not make them as even as possible so you don't have the out cattle.

Why do you think the cattle buyers sit there and give a premium on load lots of cattle that are all one breed, one weight, and one color?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

if the crossbred bull and the cross bred cow do have them same genetic make up. would you think their calves should be equal?

 

[BRG]

I have seen cows with 2 cross that raise a good calf every year. One year she has a solid red, next year her calf comes out solid black, and the next year she has a calf a white face. Now just think what will happen if you use a cross bred bull on on these females. It will be different every year and every calf.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I have seen cows with 2 cross that raise a good calf every year. One year she has a solid red, next year her calf comes out solid black, and the next year she has a calf a white face. Now just think what will happen if you use a cross bred bull on on these females. It will be different every year and every calf.

well i should have stated in performance ive seen F1 bull's off springs just fizzle out and never do good

 

[BRG]

That will happen with F1 bulls or straight bloods. No matter what we all use, it still has to be good genetics. Just because someone crossbreeds, doesn't mean you will get good cattle, or vice versa. We still need to do our part to raise the best.