Charoais cattle?

[Colorado greenhorn]

Getting back to your original question of starting a registerd herd of Charolais... having been in that business since the late 1960's I have seen alot of fads as well as bloodlines and programs that have been promoted hard, and then fizzle out when it comes time to produce. We currently have 300 char mommas and 150 Angus mommas on 10,000 acres in SE Colorado. We just got into the purebred Angus business a few years ago as the market here was swinging more and more to black.As time goes along and with the advent of satalite and internet sales, the prices we get (private treaty) for our blacks has softened, while the market for our white boys has remained strong That could be becuase of several factors, most likely because we've spent so many years developing a market for our white bulls and have not yet established a loyal following for our black boys.Speaking generally, I guess my comment on black as compared to Charolais is that the blacks don't seem to be as hearty as the whites or grow and finish like a good white will. Maybe it's just the cows we started with or because of a variety of other factors, but I much prefer the whites to the Abgus, wether it be in commercial or purebred operation. That is speaking only of bull power, for a good momma cow, in a commercial operation, I think there are several better choices other than a Charolais. Several previous posters pionted out promblems with Charolais that were indeed big promblems in the 1970's and 80's, but as was also posted earlier, the vast majority of those issues have been taken out of the gene pool. There are still some hard calving bloodlines out there that offer real good growth, but for the most part, most mature cows, reguardless of breed should be able to handle most Char bulls.
If you do in fact plan to start your own purebred Charolais herd, I would offer this advice. Be cautious where you get your start. I would reccomend contacting your local Charolais journal fieldman thru http://www.charolaisusa.com and getting a few back issues of the Charolais journal to familiarize yourself with the bllodlines and the breeders if you haven't done so already. I would also suggest that you visit with your state's Charolais assn chair person as well as other prominent breeders in your area.
As far as how common smokies or yellow calves are, in SE Colorado, SW Kansas, where we operate, the Char calves are just a little below equal to the black hided calves. I don't think the Char X calves will overtake the blacks in the next year or two, but I do think as marbling, feed effiency and HCW become more important, Charolais will continue to move to the forefront as the favored bull to make any cowherd more profitable and productive

 

[charangusman08]

What I want to do is start a registered Charolais cattle herd of up to about 40 to 50 registered charolais cows. While I am making my way up to those numbers, I want to keep the heifer calves, keep a few bull calves like 10 or so, and try to sell them as registered yearling charolais bulls. After I build my herd, I want to have some charolais x angus calves and try to sell the bull calves as yearling bulls also (note that only 50% will be what you guys call smokies and the rest all charolais) to see how they sell. I really think people in my area will like them. Thats my main goal, may sound dumb to you guys, but I beileive in it.

 

[charangusman08]

What I want to do is start a registered Charolais cattle herd of up to about 40 to 50 registered charolais cows. While I am making my way up to those numbers, I want to keep the heifer calves, keep a few bull calves like 10 or so, and try to sell them as registered yearling charolais bulls. After I build my herd, I want to have some charolais x angus calves and try to sell the bull calves as yearling bulls also (note that only 50% will be what you guys call smokies and the rest all charolais) to see how they sell. I really think people in my area will like them. Thats my main goal, may sound dumb to you guys, but I beileive in it.

In a way it kind of is a dumb idea in my mind. However, if you can make it work and enjoy doing it and make money I say go for it.

I don't mean to be defensive if I sound like it, but why does it sound dumb, my family says it is kinda lame too, why? Thanks. :|

 

[EAT BEEF]

I don't see any problem w/a reg char herd the bulls sure have a place as terminal sires.I just don't see much market for the char-angus bulls,but I've been wrong before.I would sure do my homework on the seedstock you buy before getting started and define your goals for your herd.

 

[Brandonm22]

There is nothing wrong with becoming a Charolais breeder. They are either the number 2 or number 3 breed in the country depending on which numbers you use and they work really well on Angus, Hereford, Brahman cross, black baldie, and even Longhorn mama cows. I think you need to learn a whole lot more about them before you actually start spending money on them though. As for selling Angus x Charolais F1s as herd bulls?......

I don't get it. All the F1s will have a black gene and a white gene. If a guy with Herf cows (for example) bought one of those F1 bulls, half his calves would look like black baldies and half would be yellow baldies. The resulting calf crop would look like he was running 2 or 3 different breed bulls and color would be the least of the inconsistencies.

 

[VanC]

My friend bred his charolais heifer to a black angus bull, the calf has black ears and nose and the rest is yellow, it's kinda cool, usually i heard they were a silvery gray color.

Sounds like the bull carried a red gene and passed it on to the calf. That's the only way I know that a black bull bred to charolais could produce a yellow calf.

 

[VanC]

I use Charolais bulls on Black Angus cows. Calves are white, smokie and and light brown. There are NO grays.

Dumb question: What's the difference between a smokie and a gray? I always though they were the same thing.

 

[angus9259]

Bottom line is, you know what you want to do so our opinions are mute. Nobody else is doing it in your area. That either means you'll be a genius or there's a really good reason no one is doing it in your area. Either way, you'll find out because you've already set your mind to it. You have focus and determination. You're either right or wrong. You'll find out.

 

[charangusman08]

There is nothing wrong with becoming a Charolais breeder. They are either the number 2 or number 3 breed in the country depending on which numbers you use and they work really well on Angus, Hereford, Brahman cross, black baldie, and even Longhorn mama cows. I think you need to learn a whole lot more about them before you actually start spending money on them though. As for selling Angus x Charolais F1s as herd bulls?......

I don't get it. All the F1s will have a black gene and a white gene. If a guy with Herf cows (for example) bought one of those F1 bulls, half his calves would look like black baldies and half would be yellow baldies. The resulting calf crop would look like he was running 2 or 3 different breed bulls and color would be the least of the inconsistencies.

I not sure what you are saying here, can you explain it please? What us a F1 bull? Thanks.

 

[Brandonm22]

When you cross two breeds the resulting first generation cross is called the F1 generation. If you then crossed those cattle with something else that next generation would be F2s. F3s would be the next generation. In genetics every calf gets half the genes of the father and half the genes of the mother. IF you cross an Angus to a Charolais the resulting offspring have an Angus gene and a Charolais gene for every trait (hair color being the most obvious example). That F1 bull (Angus x Charolais) is similar to all his brother's and sisters. That generation is relatively uniform. IF you use those bulls for breeding however some of the progeny will be more like his Angus parent, some will be more like his Charolais parent, and some will be more like him and have the appearance of the cross. If I have a crossbred cow herd.....lets say Angus x Hereford, commercial Angus, commercial Hereford, Red Baldie, CharxAngus, etc brood cows, I want a bull to come in and produce a good calf crop that is more uniform. A pure Charolais or Angus bull will make the resulting calf crop much more uniform than those cows are. Your Angus x Charolais crossbred bulls are going to create more confusion in that herd and in most herds. That rancher would have blacks, yellows, grays, etc from using that kind of bull.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Charolais are terminal cattle; not very fit to be momma cows compared to "real" momma cows.
The calves from a terminal bull and a maternal cow should be marketed and not kept for replacement.
This means that the only traits important are.
1. calving ease as farmer needs the calves alive and the cows to be fit to be bred again.
2. muscle, an important trait for a terminal calf, either you feed it out or sell it at seven months.
3. growth, the more weight, the more money.

Now, If your bullbuyers accept some calving difficulty in the range of charolais, then another breed called blonde dacuitaine will provide both muscle and growth, whilst chars do not really put muscle in the mix, but only a lot of pounds ( percentage meat from blonde dacuitaine. 62, percentage meat fom chars,55)!

Or, if the bull buyer does not accept so big calves, there are pedmontese and limousine, wich sire modearate calves that flesh very well, but due to the smaller frame of their father, these calves will grow a little slower. However, at weaning time this difference is not so evident.

And really, what is the reason to breed chars other than that they look big and classy on the front pasture?

 

[dun]

When you cross two breeds the resulting first generation cross is called the F1 generation. If you then crossed those cattle with something else that next generation would be F2s. F3s would be the next generation.

Pretty close. F2s are the results of breeding 2 F1s of identical breed composition.

 

[Aero]

Dumb question: What's the difference between a smokie and a gray? I always though they were the same thing.

Easy answer: they're the same thing.

 

[charangusman08]

When you cross two breeds the resulting first generation cross is called the F1 generation. If you then crossed those cattle with something else that next generation would be F2s. F3s would be the next generation. In genetics every calf gets half the genes of the father and half the genes of the mother. IF you cross an Angus to a Charolais the resulting offspring have an Angus gene and a Charolais gene for every trait (hair color being the most obvious example). That F1 bull (Angus x Charolais) is similar to all his brother's and sisters. That generation is relatively uniform. IF you use those bulls for breeding however some of the progeny will be more like his Angus parent, some will be more like his Charolais parent, and some will be more like him and have the appearance of the cross. If I have a crossbred cow herd.....lets say Angus x Hereford, commercial Angus, commercial Hereford, Red Baldie, CharxAngus, etc brood cows, I want a bull to come in and produce a good calf crop that is more uniform. A pure Charolais or Angus bull will make the resulting calf crop much more uniform than those cows are. Your Angus x Charolais crossbred bulls are going to create more confusion in that herd and in most herds. That rancher would have blacks, yellows, grays, etc from using that kind of bull.

All right I got you, makes alot more sense to me now. Thanks alot, also anyone got pictures of there own cattle that are smokies (charolais x angus)? I am thinking now I am going to breed purebred registered charolais cattle.

 

[Brandonm22]

Charolais are terminal cattle; not very fit to be momma cows compared to "real" momma cows.
The calves from a terminal bull and a maternal cow should be marketed and not kept for replacement.........And really, what is the reason to breed chars other than that they look big and classy on the front pasture?

Well, from the pictures of European Chars I have seen you could be right; but Americans have been tinkering with the breed for ~40 years and there are quite a few more maternal, smaller, easier fleshing Chars over here than what I would expect of the Euro-Chars. It is not unusual here in Alabama to see commercial Charolais cows. I have had Char x Herf and Char x Angus as well as three way cross mama cows do pretty well here myself.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Charolais are terminal cattle; not very fit to be momma cows compared to "real" momma cows.
The calves from a terminal bull and a maternal cow should be marketed and not kept for replacement.........And really, what is the reason to breed chars other than that they look big and classy on the front pasture?

Well, from the pictures of European Chars I have seen you could be right; but Americans have been tinkering with the breed for ~40 years and there are quite a few more maternal, smaller, easier fleshing Chars over here than what I would expect of the Euro-Chars. It is not unusual here in Alabama to see commercial Charolais cows. I have had Char x Herf and Char x Angus as well as three way cross mama cows do pretty well here myself.

Crossbred cattle mostly milk better and have generally easier calvings than purebreds, even if there is charolais in the mix. I am just stating that 1. chars are terminals, as they are really big, milk poorly and do grow rapidly.

2. If one makes a mix something else it will be a better maternal crossbreed.

And 3. there are other terminal breeds around, with better with better terminal traits.
There are heaps of commercial charolais in sweden but this does not make them suited as maternals.

 

[mnmtranching]

Crossing purebred Charolais with purebred Black Angus. I have NEVER got a black calf.
And I would not try to market crossbred bulls of any kind. Crossbred bulls are a key ingredient to "rattail".

 

[MikeC]

The Char Assoc. has resisted bigtime pressure for years to allow Angus X Char cross bulls to be registered in a special category aside from the Char & Charbray bulls.

There are many other composite bulls being registered, so why not? I hear the Angus Assoc is resisting the lending of info (pedigree) for this.

The name "Charbray" & "Brangus" themselves are enough to show at least some hypocrisy.

 

[dun]

The Char Assoc. has resisted bigtime pressure for years to allow Angus X Char cross bulls to be registered in a special category aside from the Char & Charbray bulls.

There are many other composite bulls being registered, so why not? I hear the Angus Assoc is resisting the lending of info (pedigree) for this.

The name "Charbray" & "Brangus" themselves are enough to show at least some hypocrisy.

Just curious
Where did the red charolais come from? Strictly from the breeding up process?

 

[MikeC]

The Char Assoc. has resisted bigtime pressure for years to allow Angus X Char cross bulls to be registered in a special category aside from the Char & Charbray bulls.

There are many other composite bulls being registered, so why not? I hear the Angus Assoc is resisting the lending of info (pedigree) for this.

The name "Charbray" & "Brangus" themselves are enough to show at least some hypocrisy.

Just curious
Where did the red charolais come from? Strictly from the breeding up process?

Yes. They are stamped with a big "RED FACTOR" stamp on the papers and have a different color certificate. After the first Char bulls were imported from the originating herd in Mexico, there was a quarantine which lasted several years that allowed no more animals. Those guys kept putting an original Char bull on the subsequent calves until they got a 15/16 - 31/32 (.94% - .97%) pure animal. After that more Chars were imported of course.

Just curious, where did the Black Sims come from?