Champion Bull.... pic

[rancherswife]

Ryan,
That is one IMPRESSIVE Bull!! I bet his babies will be beautiful.

 

[Susie David]

I like your bull...sure doesn't look like what other longhorns do.
Congrats. DMc

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Do Longhorns have EPDs? Generally the breed association certifies ultrasound technicians and they turn in the data to the assn to help build breed carcass EPDs.

To say that any breed, or species for that matter, has no EPD's is ambiguous and vague. EVERYTHING has EPD's. Whether or NOT those "Expected Progeny Differences" within the breed or group have been documented, organized, cataloged, referenced, classified, listed or described, and arranged and composed in an understandable format for the purpose of predicting the performances of future progeny relative to the performances of other animals in that data base is the operative task relative to this discussion. I am surprised that the Longhorn Association has not chosen to organize their records for the purpose of coming closer to KNOWING how their breed's collective genes can be expected to perform in regard to the breed's unique phenotypic characteristics! ;-) If I were a Longhorn Breeder - I would jump on the Board of Directors and suggest that they get off the dime and quit playing "Show and Tell" games! :shock: :roll:

DOC HARRIS

 

[Bez!]

Do Longhorns have EPDs? Generally the breed association certifies ultrasound technicians and they turn in the data to the assn to help build breed carcass EPDs.

To say that any breed, or species for that matter, has no EPD's is ambiguous and vague. EVERYTHING has EPD's. Whether or NOT those "Expected Progeny Differences" within the breed or group have been documented, organized, cataloged, referenced, classified, listed or described, and arranged and composed in an understandable format for the purpose of predicting the performances of future progeny relative to the performances of other animals in that data base is the operative task relative to this discussion. I am surprised that the Longhorn Association has not chosen to organize their records for the purpose of coming closer to KNOWING how their breed's collective genes can be expected to perform in regard to the breed's unique phenotypic characteristics! ;-) If I were a Longhorn Breeder - I would jump on the Board of Directors and suggest that they get off the dime and quit playing "Show and Tell" games! :shock: :roll:

DOC HARRIS

Doc

This is not a jab - but instead a true question.

Why not you as the person to start?

Why not grab Mr. Billy and a couple of real good folks and go down to see Ryan's operation?

I know there are a pile of folks and you do too - right here on this board - that have the skills to set this up.

Yeah - I know - dollars.

I wonder if an exploratory question to Ryan's boss might actualy start something rolling. There are probably a thousand reasons why it could not be done - but who says all of those problems are insurmountable?

Yeah - I know again - I am a bit of an innocent when it comes to this sort of thing - but I would bet you there is an opportunity here for the right folks.

Ryan wrote:

I would be interested in knowing the ribeye area of some of our animals, too.

Might be time to grab one of ollies' buddies and do a couple of scans - I figure the area will be quite respectable. But the proof would be in the pic.

Best to all,

Bez!

 

[Saltydawg]

Just a few thoughts and ramblings.....

I have always thought of Longhorns as "the wild cattle". There is a certain mystique about them that no, or few, other breeds posess.

I would be worried about losing the wildness and mystique when Longhorns are bred and treated as every other beef breed.
Wouldn't development of EPD's for them and trying to breed toward an accepted standard sort of "ruin" what Longhorns are all about?

 

[Frankie]

No EPD's for longhorns.

I would be interested in knowing the ribeye area of some of our animals, too. I will talk to my boss and see what he thinks, and might look into it further.

btw we're located in Jacksboro, TX (1hr northwest of Ft. Worth)

Oh, I know where Jacksboro is. After suggesting you bring your cattle to an Angus ultrasound day, it occurred to me that the chute they use probably won't work on your cattle's horns :?: What do you think? Here's a link to the Angus Assn list of approved technicians:
http://www.cuplab.com/location.cfm?fuseaction=dspTechs

there are several in Texas. And here's a link to the Red River Angus site. The Calendar of Events has the dates of planned ultrasounding. You might talk to them and see if their facilites would handle your cattle.

http://www.redriverangusassoc.com/

If nothing else, ask them who does their work. I think it's someone pretty close to Valley View.

 

[Ryan]

I think I am going to talk to my boss this week, and to some other members of the TLBAA this month. I will see what everyone thinks about EPD's and start getting more info that is actually related to the Beef market (like ribeye area). I think it would be great to have more info on the animals. I think having more information about the carcass (ribeye area, dressing%, quality and yield grading, etc...) would be good to have to see exactly where longhorns compare to other breeds. THe last scientific information gathered on longorns in relation to beef was 1987. So needless to say, the info is a little out of date.

Frankie,
THanks for the links. I will talk to my boss and see about getting in touch with some of the people. See if I can't get a few of them measured up.

Ryan

 

[Ryan]

Before I get under way with discussing this with other breeders, I have a few questions:

How hard is it going to be to get EPD's started for ranchers, for the Breed Association?

How long will it take to get this going (best case scenario)?

How much will it cost the breed association, ranchers?

What are the positives of having EPD's?

What do I say to people that don't care/know anything at all about the physical nature of their cattle, outside the length of its horns and color of its hide?

How much more labor will be involved for the rancher to be able to collect all the data needed for EPD's?

I am just trying to think of questions other breeders will ask.

THanks a lot,

Ryan

 

[la4angus]

If I were a Longhorn breeder I would want first of all EPD's on horn size and hide color.
That's Longhorns strong suit. Without the long horns and colorful hide they would have been eradicated a long time ago.

Next thing you know they'll be breeding Polled Longhorns with black hides and trying to qualify for CAB. :roll: :lol: :help:

 

[Ryan]

If I were a Longhorn breeder I would want first of all EPD's on horn size and hide color.

I figure that is what most of the "big-time" or "big-money" breeders will want first.

Next thing you know they'll be breeding Polled Longhorns with black hides and trying to qualify for CAB. :roll: :lol: :help:

There is already a breeder who guarantees a black, or partially black (black and white spotted), calf everytime from his bull. If it is not black he will buy it back for $1500, last time I heard.

 

[la4angus]

There is already a breeder who guarantees a black, or partially black (black and white spotted), calf everytime from his bull. If it is not black he will buy it back for $1500, last time I heard.

IMO Black is about the least attractive color for a Longhorn's hide.

 

[Frankie]

There is already a breeder who guarantees a black, or partially black (black and white spotted), calf everytime from his bull. If it is not black he will buy it back for $1500, last time I heard.

That's a pretty good guarantee. There's a rancher in my area that leases black Longhorn bulls out for use with first calf heifers. I don't know that he makes any gurantee on color, though. There's a group of black heifers not far from me that have all calved to one of his bulls. Every calf is solid black, except one. He's marked like a Longhorn and sure stands out among all those black cattle.

 

[Frankie]

Before I get under way with discussing this with other breeders, I have a few questions:

How hard is it going to be to get EPD's started for ranchers, for the Breed Association?

That depends on how many breeders are willing to provide the data.

How long will it take to get this going (best case scenario)?

That depends on how much data is available right away. The Noble Foundation started EPDs on their Noble Line of cattle and they were able to get EPDs pretty quick. But they had years of data available to put into the program from the gitgo.

How much will it cost the breed association, ranchers?

There are several groups that maintain records and EPDs for breed associations. You'd need to get bids from them.

What are the positives of having EPD's?

IMO, any breed that is serious about competing in the beef business needs EPDs.

What do I say to people that don't care/know anything at all about the physical nature of their cattle, outside the length of its horns and color of its hide?

If that's all they're interested in, you're probably wasting your time trying to convince them that EPDs will be useful in their program.

How much more labor will be involved for the rancher to be able to collect all the data needed for EPD's?

I am just trying to think of questions other breeders will ask.

THanks a lot,

Ryan

At a minimum, the calves need to be weighed at birth, weaning and as yearlings. Ultrasounding as yearlings will be necessary for carcass data.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc

This is not a jab - but instead a true question.

Why not you as the person to start?

Bez! I am humbled by your faith in my abilities! There are many reasons (excuses?) why I would decline to subject myself to the vicissitudes and the chain of circumstances concommitant with the establishment of an EPD program for any breed! Some of those reasons are the incredible time involved in such an effort, lack of experience with the particular characteristics of the breed itself, the very large amount of expense which would be necessary, and the dedicated desire which would be mandatory for such a formidable endeavor to be successful.

In a very weak moment - 35 years ago - I was convinced to accept the responsibility of designing and writing, from 'scratch' a complete Registration and Record Keeping Program for the International Chinchilla (Fur) Industry. I did so with one Caveat: I would do it ALONE - with no interference from anyone and no time restrictions! It had been attempted several times before with disastrous consequences and I was going to have none of those problems to confuse the issue! I did it - (without computers!), it took almost a year to complete and it is still functioning today with several modifications in the interim. One of the more difficult aspects of it is the fact that the extremely white fur color and shading of the underbelly of the live animal is dictated by a combination of multiple genes and loci, just for the white fur ONLY - not for any other traits! And, of course, the human element of the Ranchers themselves was a contributing factor of difficulty!

This particular "Longhorn Cattle" undertaking would be formidable enough as to qualify for a doctoral thesis!

The plan would necessitate the establishment of a Longhorn Herd Improvement Records program building a Longhorn Breed database and incorporating EPD's for specific traits peculiar to the Longhorn Breed itself. I would think that this should be a challenge and a confrontation for a University Agricultural Business program - perhaps Texas A & M would pick up the "Thrown Gauntlet" and run with the hypothesis. How about it Aggies?? :shock: Are you 'GAME?' 8) ;-) ;-)

DOC HARRIS

 

[buckaroo_bif]

One of the finest Longhorns I ever did see Ryan I seem to be missing something in the picture though, where are his horns? Boy I wish I hadn't lost them gol durn glasses. !

 

[la4angus]

One of the finest Longhorns I ever did see Ryan I seem to be missing something in the picture though, where are his horns? !

They are there. Just not very long and hard to seee with the lighring.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Next thing you know they'll be breeding Polled Longhorns with black hides and trying to qualify for CAB.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :help: :help: - gasp - - wheeze - - that is hilarious, Lloyd! :lol: :lol:

DOC HARRIS

 

[buckaroo_bif]

Next thing you know they'll be breeding Polled Longhorns with black hides and trying to qualify for CAB.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :help: :help: - gasp - - wheeze - - that is hilarious, Lloyd! :lol: :lol:

DOC HARRIS

you mean CLB possibly?

 

[Chuckie]

Now that is a pretty bull. I love his coloring. All you need now is a pretty red "snow capped" Appaloosa to go with him.

 

[Ryan]

What are the positives of having EPD's?

IMO, any breed that is serious about competing in the beef business needs EPDs.

What do I say to people that don't care/know anything at all about the physical nature of their cattle, outside the length of its horns and color of its hide?

If that's all they're interested in, you're probably wasting your time trying to convince them that EPDs will be useful in their program.

I think these would be the big obstacles that one would be faced with if trying to develop something like this. Too many of the breeders feel that the only way to improve them is to make their horns bigger. What is worse is that the big spenders, or "big-money" breeders are the ones that feel this way.

It is sounding like getting EPD's started up would be a pretty tough obstacle. I will still be looking into it, though. In the mean time I will still try to do my best to gather more info about our animals, and see what I can do to improve the breed.

Ryan