Can using different breeds of bulls cause problems?

[Big Cheese]

I'm new to this site but I've been around cattle since I was little (I'm 25)......but my opinion here would be is as long as the heifer you keep is from a good mama and a PUREBRED (KEY here) bull you should be OK no matter how many breeds the mama cow has in her. Anyone agree here? I'm all about learning and gaining knowledge here.

 

[Nesikep]

I might be the odd guy out here, but since even purebred bulls are not all that purebred in some cases, I'm not even sure that the purebred bull is that important.
I think as long as the bulls of whatever breed you're using are selected according to your goals, and they meet those goals, I don't see much problem for a commercial operation.

I have cows with 2 or 3 breeds, and I can't say they're better than the ones with 4 or 5 breeds.. I can't say they're worse either. Historically we have been using all purebred bulls, we've had Red angus, Saler, 2x Shorthorn, Gelbvieh, and now a Limousin. We started with Herf or Angus cross cows. I only had one 1/2 Saler cow left for the Gelbvieh bull to breed, and she was a really good cow, but I really like those calves, the SHxGelbvieh cows make some great ones too.
A few years back I kept a 3/4 SH bull, but didn't like the way he turned out, this year I kept a crossbred bull that I will use next year, and use him on a few cows.. Which cows (best or worst) will depend on how I like the look of the Limo calves. I do plan on reducing the number of outside bulls I use, and might have a rotating bull exchange with a friend which would facilitate it for a small herd like mine.

 

[tistis]

I like two a nice Balancer bull on some of them Murray Grey cows ..

 

[Nesikep]

tistis.. If I'm not mistaken, that's at least 3.. Balancers being Gelbvieh/Angus, and Murray gray being a composite as well (I seem to remember it being SH/black angus?).. My memory is foggy about that though.

 

[ANAZAZI]

tistis.. If I'm not mistaken, that's at least 3.. Balancers being Gelbvieh/Angus, and Murray gray being a composite as well (I seem to remember it being SH/black angus?).. My memory is foggy about that though.

A world of difference in consistency between the very fixed Murray grey and the not so fixed Balancer.

 

[tistis]

Iike to see a picture of some of them

 

[dun]

When yo ustart intorducing very many breeds you start to lose the advantages of heterosis

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Sort of like letting your dog run loose and just breed with whatever shows up first, retaining pups and doing it all over again, and again, and.....

Luckily nobody on these boards is that foolish. :cboy:

 

[bulldurham]

The whole point to a balancer or simangus is to make crossbreeding easy. Use one back and forth with hereford and you have a three way cross in a two way cross system. It's can't get much easier than that.

Distinguish between the point of using stabilized composites such as Brangus and using % crossbreds like balancer or simangus

 

[Andyva]

I decided to go with shorthorn, only way to get a three way cross. Hereford, Shorthorn, Angus. Now that all of the other breeds are Angus based. I wouldn't suggest getting too wrapped up on the idea of limiting the number of breeds in a cross. Most purebreds are a three way cross as it is. It's all about phenotype. Breed like to like, color doesn't matter. When you breed for color it seems like they all turn black, anymore. Hybrid vigor comes into play when crossing different phenotypes, like Hereford/Brahma. If you breed Hereford and Angus back and forth for a long time you get the "Black and White Faced" breed. No hybrid vigor happening there, hybrid vigor doesn't happen in the hide. Throw in a Limousin and you will see hybrid vigor. Heck, most of the continental breeds just caught on as a result of the hybrid vigor wave they were riding. Yeah, when you cross milk stock with beef stock you get some big framed animals. I had a neighbor that rode from France all the way to Germany and he said all the cattle were all mixed up and they didn't have any fences separating them. Of course his tank didn't help any of that.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Andy you are wrong on a few things. First No purebreds that I know of are 3way cross. A composite breed yes. You didn't lose the hybrid vigor breeding back and forth between angus Hereford, it just got to where you didn't notice it. The continental breeds were needed to up the yield grade and increase hybrid vigor on the angus Hereford crosses. Still some breeds that are not angus based Char Limousin Hereford Saler.

 

[Andyva]

Angus are a three way cross. Angus, Holstein and Chianina. Not officially, maybe. Herefords have Simmental in them. Unless they are polled. Then they have Shorthorn in them too. Charolais were graded up using Shorthorns and Holsteins. So were most other continentals. The only reason that continentals added frame is because they all got mixed up real good in the late forties, they were riding the hybrid vigor wave. The concept of a breed is relatively new anyway. The concept of breeding like to like is not new. When a line becomes depressed, a certain amount of boost is added by crossing to a different line. They could be the same so called breed, and still achieve this. The biggest "hybrid vigour" boost can be seen when the ingredients are pretty different. Cornish Chicken crossed on a White Rock, Zebu crossed on an Angus, Donkey crossed with a Horse, Pekin crossed on a Muscovy. But you can still get a boost when you cross two lines within the same breed, which is the same as crossing two very similar breeds.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Your full of crap. Some Chars were bred up as some Limousin were bred up till Full French genetics could be imported. While some crooks did some fancy paper work on angus and Hereford a lot of good honest breeders did it right and still are today. Frame was not what was needed yield was what was needed. To much trim on the angus Hereford crosses back then. I fully understand how hybrid vigor works. Look up a picture of two early Limousin bulls imported in to Canada Prince Pompador and Dandy. They sure didn't add frame.

 

[Andyva]

Whatever they added, they added largely because, genetically speaking, they were put in a bottle with a bunch of other stuff and shaken vigourously in the mid to late forties. Before that they were mixing with imported Durham cattle (Shorthorns). That is why some French guy decided to call them a breed. How long they had been mixing with imported cattle is not known.

 

[chippie]

Andyva, are you talking about Charolais cattle?
If so, you are incorrect. Charolais is a old breed dating back several hundred years.
The only time the breed was mixed was when they left France, but the breeding was not random as you indicate. There are multiple European breeds that have other breeds in their background. The registration papers indicate as such. Full blood and purebred. We have two Braunvieh cows. One is Full Blood Original Braunvieh out of imported stock. The other is Purebred. She has some Angus in her background. Her registration papers show the Angus bull's name and registration number in addition to the Full blood Braunvieh names and numbers. Responsible and reputable breeders are truthful about keeping accurate records.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/charolais/

http://www.thecattlesite.com/breeds/bee ... s/overview

http://www.maison-charolais.com/en/hist ... rigin.html

 

[ANAZAZI]

Upgrading does not make crossbred cattle in any practical sense. Every generation brings it further from the cross, if you put five generations of say Limousine it really does not matter if you started with Jersey, Shorthorn or something with a hump, there is only 3% left of that breed.

 

[Andyva]

Exactly, so if you have a five way cross, you can breed it back to any of the five and you have a 5/8ths or a 9/32. Any other purebred crossed on that will get you every bit as much hybrid vigor as any other three way cross with three purebred registered animals. They cant get "too mixed up", which was what the original poster was asking. You could, but you would have to work hard at it. You can make them just as pure as most everything else out there in four generations. As long as you don't add mini-cattle, milk stock, longhorn, (unless that's what you want) it's not going to make much difference. People get too hung up on papers, and titles, and breed designations.

 

[Andyva]

And I was talking about Limousins being crossed heavily on Durham cattle at the time they were first registered.

 

[Nesikep]

There seems to be the notion that different breeds of cattle are like different makes of cars, thus 'putting a chevy tranny in a ford' would evidently be a problem.. That's not the way I look at it..

Perhaps more like computers, which have a set of standards that all manufacturers need to adhere to... Some work well better or worse depending on the other hardware in it, and you have to select the components that complement each other.

As long as we're talking beef cows, the goal is to make meat.. They need to be functional for the region they're in, Frame size and milking ability play a large part there, Regional markets will dictate what color the hide has to be, but the goal is to make feeder steers with meat on their bones. Your method of getting there is up to you.

 

[Angus Cowman]

HG i just posted a pic of a bull on here that you could use and not be concerned about crossing up genetics he is on the facebook post put up by RBB :hide: :hide: