Bull question

[Hogtiming]

I'm looking at an Angus bull Connealy line. His ced is -8 ACC .39. bw is 3.1 acc .45. Im wanting to breed him to my cows. Average 1300 pounds. Some larger. Should I expect calving issues?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

What was the bull's weight at birth?

I think your cows should be able to handle him.

 

[Ky hills]

I agree with Tennessee Tuxedo, I wonder what the birthweight of the bull is, and that if it isn't extreme, that mature cows would probably be ok. I haven't used any bulls with that low of CED, but have debated using a couple. Bulls like SAV Harvester, SAV International, Connealy Earnan, all seem to be heavily used, and I haven't heard of calving issues. I think about it, then so far I have played it safe and used higher CED bulls. One of the concerns that I have is with the CEM of the bulls daughters, if heifers are kept for replacements.

 

[Hogtiming]

91 pounds. He does have big shoulders

 

[Hogtiming]

His cem is +3 ACC .17

 

[Ky hills]

I AI bred most of my cows to PA Power Tool 9108, last year, he has a 90+ BW with currently +10 CED, and +1.2 BW EPD.
I chose him for cows because I thought he may bring some added growth, but still be easy calving. The bull you mentioned has EPD's that have fairly low accuracies, which is the case with any young bull that we would buy, or young unproven AI sire.
I would surmise that his 3 BW and -8 CED would point to larger BW calves on average, although 3 BW at present could change it doesn't seem too high for cows. The CEM of 3 could be factor when calving out his daughters.
Before EPD's came along, I was told by some older cattlemen, that if you stood behind a bull and could see his shoulders he could be hard calving, that was with Charolais, I guess that applied to other breeds as well. Some of the Angus bulls that I see do look pretty massive through the shoulders, but are still considered calving ease.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm looking at an Angus bull Connealy line. His ced is -8 ACC .39. bw is 3.1 acc .45. Im wanting to breed him to my cows. Average 1300 pounds. Some larger. Should I expect calving issues?

If they are trying to get him used widely, the first calves will be from superior cows to get the data. That is the reason some bull data takes a dive after a second crop. So, if the data is correct so far and can be used on a broad population of cattle, you are seeing a bull that sires calves with a shape that are hard to calve. If you use him the genetics for that will be in your cattle for generations.

Breed for extremes; you get extremes.

 

[Lucky_P]

Minus 8 CED. Really? MINUS 8?
91 lb own BW doesn't scare me, on mature cows, nor does the 3.1 BW epd, but minus 8 CED would make him a non-starter here - even on cows, and the 3 CEM would finish it off... I want daughters that I might retain to be able to calve easily.

Personally, I'd keep looking...elsewhere... unless that CED is actually +8?
I searched the AAA 'main sires' list for bulls with -8 CED... there weren't but about 4 of them; none looked to be a Conneally-bred bull...

 

[Air gator]

The breed average for CED in Angus is +6. If I understand epds right then this would mean that you would experience calving issues 14 percent more often than a bull with a +6 CED epd. Most of the Angus bulls with negative CED epds are used for show calves from what I see in semen catalogs. Everything I have seen about CED is that it is much more reliable than BW alone. I don't know what you would gain from this bull unless he has tremendous growth and eye appeal. The breed average WW is 49 and YW is 88. This bull would have to have a ton of growth to make up for the CED risk. Breed average for CEM is +8. Let's put it this way, there's not a lot of semen companies promoting bulls with -8 CED and +3 CEM. If the bull is +8 for CED then it's a different story. There are some very popular bulls with below average epd for CEM.

 

[bse]

I think y'all need to understand the EPD. CED is the number when bred to a group of first calf heifers not mature cows. So he is deffinetly not a heifer bull. Now CEM is the heifer progeny out of this bull to calve as first calf heifers not all there life as mature cows. So use a high CED on his progeny as heifers you will get along ok.
That being said this bull would need to have some grow in him for me to use, but if he did, - CED would not bother me at all. Personally I think folks stay way to positive on CED and way to negative on BW for mature cows. JMO
I use this bull alot 15734469 calves are great and I will continue using him, by the criteria here he would be a steer.

 

[Son of Butch]

Personally I think folks stay way too positive on CED and way to negative on BW for mature cows. JMO
I use this bull alot 15734469 calves are great and I will continue using him, by the criteria here he would be a steer.

I'll agree with that.
I looked up 15734469 and there is an awful lot to like about him with high acc to boot he's -4 ce +3.0 and fits right
with what I said on other posts about ratios 68 ww and $W 79 ratio of 1.16 says his calves live to weaning
I can understand why you like him.
The fear on the the op bull in question is -8 ce with low acc and no pedigree look up, is he may end up like this bull
rather than the 15734469 bull you cited.

http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... ge?bid=271
-13 ce +6.6 bw .85 acc ww 65 $W 56 ratio of .86
(No Thank You) too many of his calves don't live to weaning And I'm certainly not going to be the guy to reassure the op
has nothing to worry about without a lot more info than what he posted.

 

[bse]

SOB
I agree with what your saying, im just playing devils avocate.
I wouldn't use the bull based on what little I know about him, but don't think if he is good, a -8 CED and +3 CEM will ruin your herd by any means. Id take a field full of heifers out of the bull I mentioned.
The original bull mentioned must have had a 50k or something, maybe a few calves, but the acc is a little higher than just a bull calf.

 

[cow pollinater]

If they are trying to get him used widely, the first calves will be from superior cows to get the data. That is the reason some bull data takes a dive after a second crop.

Yep!
That being said, I wouldn't not use him on mature cows just because of CED. Angus is far and away the leader of the main breeds for birthweight and there is no across breed adjustment for CED so you could consider him to be on par with an average to above average char bull on CE and people breed them to cows all the time with no trouble at all.
You will want to be kind of careful when it's time to breed the daughters back.

 

[Ebenezer]

If they are trying to get him used widely, the first calves will be from superior cows to get the data. That is the reason some bull data takes a dive after a second crop.

Yep!
That being said, I wouldn't not use him on mature cows just because of CED. Angus is far and away the leader of the main breeds for birthweight and there is no across breed adjustment for CED so you could consider him to be on par with an average to above average char bull on CE and people breed them to cows all the time with no trouble at all.
You will want to be kind of careful when it's time to breed the daughters back.

Breed associations and cattle replicators have no interest in breed stabilization thus this type bull gets put out for public use. Extremes excite, extremes attract and extremes attract money. It is up to thinking breeders to avoid extremes, stabilize their population/herd/flock and select environmentally fit individuals so that complete animals can be created generation after generation without the constant need to go out and find bulls (generally) or cows to bring in chink traits to fill the gaping holes of the ones at home.