Bull prospect

[wbvs58]

GAR Precision 1680 is still in the database, but it does show that he is a carrier of AM and NH. Lots of use with BW and WW data submitted on over 8000 progeny.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the use of AI bulls vs walking bulls does not necessarily mean an increased risk of a genetic issue. Genetic defects can naturally originate in an animal or can be inherited from one or both parents. Stands to reason that a bull with heavy use has a higher risk of a defect presenting itself in progeny - not due to the fact that he has AI use, but from the fact that more progeny/use increases the probability of detection (not existence) of the defect. A bull purchased for in herd natural use could have a genetic mutation/defect that is never detected. But he might be spreading that defect in half his calves who also spread the defect for years.

Take two scenarios - an AI bull with heavy use that has a defect which is soon detected, a test developed, and an effort to locate and remove the defective animals is underway. Or a natural service bull that sires 50 calves per year - half carrying the defect. 5 calves kept and sold as breeding stock each year. Which scenario presents the higher risk long term?

A good case for only using registered bulls where the pedigree and genetic status is known. For example take one defect such as AM, it would not matter one bit how many carriers of AM cows were in a herd as long as the bull you used was AM free. If you were to work on 25% of the herd were carriers of AM from previous use of a carrier bull, this is on the assumption that 50% of the progeny of that bull were carriers and then 50% of those calves would be steers and if you kept all the heifers it would still only be 25% of your cows as carriers. With the new bull free of AM after keeping all his heifers in one generation you are down to 25% of 25% that are carriers in your herd which is 6.25% so the carrier staus is quickly eliminated in a commercial cow herd with little or no damage done.
Pedigree registered with a reputable breed society is a pretty powerfull tool in dealing with any recessive defect that may crop up. Heavy use of outstanding bulls and cows will continue to be used in the seedstock industry and commercially and I am sure there will be more defects show up in the future but you look to taking these small risks to look for these improvements you are after. Isn't that what we are all after in breeding cattle, the next generation better than the previous. We are in a very good position to deal with it.
Precision seems to be the one that is demonised the most, Travlr will always bring up his name when this subject is brought up as exhibit A. I would like to make it clear that Precisions influence on the Angus breed has not been wiped out it is present in many of the top Angus lines today. Any carriers have been been dealt with by removing to the commercial herd and live their life out as productive commercial cows. They will still be on the Angus database though. No herds wiped out, no big pits dug to bury animals.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Question to Angus breeders:
Does the AAA require breeders to DNA test offspring of known carriers?
In the Simmental, we have to DNA any animal that is sired by or out of a cow that has a known defect - and any animals bred by or out of a Shorthorn, Chi, MaineAnj, etc.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

I don't know about inbred linebred cattle since I just breed my Jerseys to whatever available Angus bulls on the ranch and I sell the calves for whatever I can get. My husbands father bred up a pedigree herd of Charlaise from breeding back to pedigree bulls for several generations. My husband bred up a pedigree herd of Beefmasters by the same method. No genetic defects that I ever heard of. The steaks got to be too big for the packers so he bred them the cows down smaller.

Inbreeding is not popular with mother nature for some reason. For example, I am new to honeybee keeping. Did you know that bee queens will not mate with their own sons? When bees colonies swarm, which is how bees reproduce, the bred queen leaves with half the workers and most the drones but she is already bred. Some queen eggs are left behind. New virgen queens fly out and mate with the whatever local rifraf, returns to the hive, lays eggs and produces vigorous outcross workers.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Controlled knowledgeable line breeding has been successful in many cases. Many breeds do not have a genetic defect major problem. A new genetic defect can show up anytime. Linebreeding is the fastest way to FIND it!! LOL
We (Simmental) just discovered a GD called Hydrops. ASA has ID'd the defect and what bull it seems to have started with and reported to membership what bull it is. Notified all membership - looking for any other cases to study. Already held an open Zoom meeting for all membership to discuss it.
All animals can develop a NEW GD. It's up to breed associations and breeders to discover them, openly announce it to the public, and work to eradicate it. Not hide it.

 

[Allenw]

Controlled knowledgeable line breeding has been successful in many cases. Many breeds do not have a genetic defect major problem. A new genetic defect can show up anytime. Linebreeding is the fastest way to FIND it!! LOL
We (Simmental) just discovered a GD called Hydrops. ASA has ID'd the defect and what bull it seems to have started with and reported to membership what bull it is. Notified all membership - looking for any other cases to study. Already held an open Zoom meeting for all membership to discuss it.
All animals can develop a NEW GD. It's up to breed associations and breeders to discover them, openly announce it to the public, and work to eradicate it. Not hide it.

"All animals can develop a NEW GD. It's up to breed associations and breeders to discover them, openly announce it to the public, and work to eradicate it. Not hide it."

This is how it should work, unfortunately breed associations like the Simmental association are few and far between.

 

[cowgirl8]

I don't know about inbred linebred cattle since I just breed my Jerseys to whatever available Angus bulls on the ranch and I sell the calves for whatever I can get. My husbands father bred up a pedigree herd of Charlaise from breeding back to pedigree bulls for several generations. My husband bred up a pedigree herd of Beefmasters by the same method. No genetic defects that I ever heard of. The steaks got to be too big for the packers so he bred them the cows down smaller.

Inbreeding is not popular with mother nature for some reason. For example, I am new to honeybee keeping. Did you know that bee queens will not mate with their own sons? When bees colonies swarm, which is how bees reproduce, the bred queen leaves with half the workers and most the drones but she is already bred. Some queen eggs are left behind. New virgen queens fly out and mate with the whatever local rifraf, returns to the hive, lays eggs and produces vigorous outcross workers.

We have to lute all our heifers because if they can hold him up, they get bred by their father before they are weaned. When you have a dominate herd sire, does he excuse his daughters to go to the other resident herd sire? I'm not sure how it works in the wild, but, i'm guessing inbreeding is done very often in nature.

 

[Travlr]

I'm not sure how it works in the wild, but, i'm guessing inbreeding is done very often in nature.

Think about that in terms of a place with no fences and large herds, and with males that compete for breeding rights. Cattle don't form bands like horses do, family groups (more or less), and they don't have dominant males guarding relatives specifically, more just guarding anyone within a proximity. Cows aren't loyal to a bull, bulls aren't loyal to cows, and both travel vast distances between breedings. And there are many more bulls in a natural scenario. The ratio inside your fencing may be 30/40 to one, but in the wild there are almost as many bulls as cows.

 

[Ebenezer]

I don't know about inbred linebred cattle since I just breed my Jerseys to whatever available Angus bulls on the ranch and I sell the calves for whatever I can get. My husbands father bred up a pedigree herd of Charlaise from breeding back to pedigree bulls for several generations. My husband bred up a pedigree herd of Beefmasters by the same method. No genetic defects that I ever heard of. The steaks got to be too big for the packers so he bred them the cows down smaller.

Inbreeding is not popular with mother nature for some reason. For example, I am new to honeybee keeping. Did you know that bee queens will not mate with their own sons? When bees colonies swarm, which is how bees reproduce, the bred queen leaves with half the workers and most the drones but she is already bred. Some queen eggs are left behind. New virgen queens fly out and mate with the whatever local rifraf, returns to the hive, lays eggs and produces vigorous outcross workers.

But the major advances in honey bee breeding has been via man controlled programs such as the Buckfast work. Mimicking nature does not insure positive results in farming. How much pressure does nature put on a hive to survive or to make a profitable amount of honey? Same for wildlife: if they don't breed or have a live offspring until weaning - who cares? But if you are a trophy hunter - the place to go is where they either control breed as the best bet or secondly where they do selective harvest techniques whish is intended to lessen the genetic potential of the population.

 

[wbvs58]

Controlled knowledgeable line breeding has been successful in many cases. Many breeds do not have a genetic defect major problem. A new genetic defect can show up anytime. Linebreeding is the fastest way to FIND it!! LOL
We (Simmental) just discovered a GD called Hydrops. ASA has ID'd the defect and what bull it seems to have started with and reported to membership what bull it is. Notified all membership - looking for any other cases to study. Already held an open Zoom meeting for all membership to discuss it.
All animals can develop a NEW GD. It's up to breed associations and breeders to discover them, openly announce it to the public, and work to eradicate it. Not hide it.

Genetic defects have been around in all breeds for a very long time, way before modern technology has been able to identify them. You only have to look in the pathology text books, Jubb and Kennedy which was a modern text book when I was at Uni, they describe many many birth defects in animals which we all took to being just one of those things that happened from time to time. These defects didn't take over the cattle population they stayed at a low level. Way back there was no artificial breeding with heavy use of one particular sire however AI has been used heavily back as far as I can remember and long before these defects were identified as being genetic. If something did crop up people may have just avoided that particular mating in case there was something in it but it wasn't the end of the world.

Ken

 

[GoWyo]

But the major advances in honey bee breeding has been via man controlled programs such as the Buckfast work. Mimicking nature does not insure positive results in farming. How much pressure does nature put on a hive to survive or to make a profitable amount of honey? Same for wildlife: if they don't breed or have a live offspring until weaning - who cares? But if you are a trophy hunter - the place to go is where they either control breed as the best bet or secondly where they do selective harvest techniques whish is intended to lessen the genetic potential of the population.

One of my favorite quotes from my dad when we were discussing ways to lower inputs on cattle to gain profitability, etc.: "If you treat cattle like wildlife, then you're gonna get wildlife." Need to find the balance between the survivability wildlife have in their natural surroundings and production traits needed in the livestock.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

I understand how in breed line breeding can select for and fix traits and can also bring out the genetic dark side. And for some reason is not popular in nature.

An elk bull sires all the calves in his band but usually starves in the winter because he did not eat and fatten himself to survive the winter. All he did was mate and fight. In this way the genetics of a supperior bull are passed on but he does not survive to breed his daughters. Sure sometimes that happens but usually not.

Young wolves leave their family and travel 100s of miles in search of a mate to form a pair bond and make a new pack.

Honeybees may have been improved but they haven't bred queens that mate with their own sons. Sure they breed lines and breeds of bees so they can sell a single expensive insect. They send them in little boxes by the US mail. My queen was a Carnolian but she swarmed with half the hive population including her drone sons to make a new hive. That is how bees increase themselves. But she was already bred so did not breed with them. However, her daughter queen she left behind flew out and mated with the local rifraf. Inbreeding is not possible in the real world.

Bulls breeding their own heifer calf before she was weaned she would have a calf way too young and would never amount to much trying to grow and make milk. She and would be sold off at an early age, not retained.

Herds of wild horses and zebras show a surprizing amount heterozygosity. This study done on wild horses -Abstract. A genetically-isolated herd of 24 Camargue horses left unmanaged for 6 years produced 58living foals and developed a social system similar to that of wild horses. Paternity of the foals wasdetermined by blood-typing. Inbreeding coefficients were calculated and were lower than expected onthe hypothesis that mating was random with respect to relatedness. The horses showed reduced levelsof sexual behaviour with members of their entourage as juveniles--mother, herd stallion and maternalsiblings.

Discussion- Under these semi-natural conditions the levelsof inbreeding remained low (median inbreedingcoefficient < 0.04 each year). The expected level,calculated by weighting each stallion accordingto his reproductive success, was significantly higher, both during the early years and after thedivision of the herd.This reduction of inbreeding did not resultfrom any general tendency of the mares to mate with less-related stallions for there was a positive,though non-significant, correlation between thestallions' reproductive success and their average relatedness to the mares.The most consanguineous offspring resultfrom parent-offspring and sibling matings. Both occurred and resulted in offspring in this herd.The horses did not, therefore, recognize and avoid all close kin. There was, however, an avoidance of mother-son pairings. There were also reduced levels of sexual behaviour between fillies and the stallion of their natal band, who would normally be their father, and between maternal siblings which had been contemporary members of their mother's matriarchal family.These horses therefore showed reduced levels ofsexual activity with the members of their immediate social entourage when juvenile, not withclose kin per se. These results do not provide evidence for genetically-based recognition of close kin such as has been found in some species(e.g. pigtail macaques, Wu et al. 1980), but theydo imply that the mechanisms which led to the reduction of inbreeding were based on experience. This kind of sexual imprinting has beenfound in a number of other mammals (e.g.Hoogland 1982) and in birds (e.g. Bateson 1978)and is considered to be a primary mechanism of incest avoidance in animal societies (Harveyet al. 1980).The development of long-lasting social bonds between adult males and females in the year1977-1978 followed the pattern of sexual relationship in the early years. There was no general avoidance of close kin, but mother-son, filly stallion-of-natal-band and contemporary siblings did not occur in the same bands. As a consequence most stallions had relatively unrelated mares in their bands.These horses showed behaviour patterns which led to the reduction of inbreeding which is found inwild herds. It is therefore probable that the dispersal of young horses which, in mature societies,.generally occurs at puberty (e.g. Penzhorn 1979)is a consequence of the reduced levels of sexual activity between the young horses and their immediate entourage.

The royal bloodlines of Europe intermarried too close and all kinds of defects appeared.

 

[mwj]

A lot of people are very proud of what they think they know.

 

[Ebenezer]

closed population of red deer

closed population of soay sheep

Those are some good studies. If you want cattle studies, then there is Line 1, Shoshone X strain, Holsteins, dogs, horses...

It would take a lot of research to prove broad statements of "And for some reason is not popular in nature." Or that all dominate bull elk die each winter. 1000s of species have gone extinct. Could "natural inbreeding" have been "natural" in some of those cases or was "natural inbreeding" the reason that there are survival species? Studies, again, of wild populations of animals can tell us "stuff" but it does not mean that anyone here is saying to make the family tree of a herd or flock to look like a beanpole.

I use a bull AI from about 1967 that had his sire misidentified when he was registered. I will not tell which bull to keep down the backlash but it was reported and the association told the guy to shut up because it would show that the records (back then) were faulty. His pedigree is such that the sire is also the grandsire 2X on the dam's side. A great bull to use in that line of cattle here - no problem.

If you knew what I do, I roll through the use of a limited # of old bulls and always use sons from various cows. The #1 thing in linebreeding is the question to always ask "What is the purpose of the linebreeding attempt?" If it is just to linebreed, then quit right there. If it is to test, stabilize, segregate or whatever then you can try and see what happens. I am not dumb and will tell you that with tight inbreeding and a limited genepool, such as the sire/daughter or son/mother example that is always waved in the face of all who discuss linebreeding, I expect 15% success. So I do not willy nilly linebreed.

But I already know that I will do a sire daughter mating of a particular bull that is very limited when I can and until then I will try him as grandsire/grandaughter as soon as I can. I also know that he has been bred sire/daughter in the past with good results.

I have not studied up on bees in a long time. But I do keep up with the cattle and sheep world a bit closer. We have a closed flock of registered sheep that has been closed since 2009. They are bred in 6 different lines even though the ancestry of all is a small group. So, I linebreed but do it wisely. Not the constant sire/daughter and son/mother example that anti-linebreeders always throw in to scuttle the ship.

 

[Katpau]

Question to Angus breeders:
Does the AAA require breeders to DNA test offspring of known carriers?
In the Simmental, we have to DNA any animal that is sired by or out of a cow that has a known defect - and any animals bred by or out of a Shorthorn, Chi, MaineAnj, etc.

Bulls must be tested free to be eligible for registration. Cows can be registered without testing, but their potential carrier status will be noted on their registration. This includes any animal that traces back to a known carrier through untested parents.

For example, your cow or bull traces back to known carrier Bull A who is the great great great grandsire of your cow. none of the cows between him and your cow were tested and found to be free of the defect. A bull calf born to that cow, can not be registered, unless tested and found to not be a carrier. Her daughters would be eligible for registration and that potential would be noted on the registration, and the risk would continue on into the next generation. For that reason, most seed-stock producers will test their cows too, and remove the carriers. Some exceptional individuals may remain in the herd for a time in hopes of producing clean replacements out of them.

 

[cowgirl8]

I know some of you guys buy your cows at sale barns. Do you asked how they are bred?

 

[BC]

I know some of you guys buy your cows at sale barns. Do you asked how they are bred?

I prefer pairs because I don't get as many surprises. Too many Longhorn cross calves and lbw dinks buying bred cows unless it is a dispersal.

 

[Ebenezer]

I know some of you guys buy your cows at sale barns. Do you asked how they are bred?

Even more important if that was me - why are they being sold?

 

[Ebenezer]

honey bee improvement programs overview

Here is an article about honey bee breeding if you are interested. There are extreme differences in them as a species compared to common livestock species. I would not consider them a solid parallel study concerning linebreeding because of those differences. However, linebreeding is a form of breeding used in bee improvement programs but with limits. What was interesting is the development of 4 way crossed queens.

The first two steps recommended was quite useful:
1- describe the desired stock
2- measure superior breeding stock

 

[Lucky_P]

cowgirl8,
If you want to jack up the brindling, get a Braunvieh bull.... when you cross that 'wild' color gene on red or red-carrier cows, you get lots of brindle calves as a result.
Like this one:

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I know some of you guys buy your cows at sale barns. Do you asked how they are bred?

There are a good number of producers who purchase cows at sale barns for breeding, and even bulls. This strikes me as a very risky proposition as there is a reason the cow or bull is at the sale barn. The question should be, and rarely gets answered is: Why is the animal at the sale barn/why does the producer want to get rid of the animal? Admittedly buying a cow/calf pair seems/is safer as it indicates the cow is capable of producing a calf, but the question remains.