Bull prospect

[puzzled in oregon]

Sometimes, boom, we get something like this.. From the old school sim blood View attachment 31057

Uh Oh !!!! The dreaded "Spotted Syndrome Defect".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Guaranteed that spotted calf is NOT out of a PB Angus bull or PB Angus cow.

I'll defend the "big cow".
My herd average is probably 1550# - 1600#. Little cows are a waste of time up here. Extreme cold in winter and lush pastures in summer. Lots of research has proven cow weight vs feed intake is not linear. I like my 700# - 750# WW, but mainly I'm producing replacement breeding stock. Average probably 5.5 - 6 FS. Not a lot of leg, just big tanks. People used to grab a tape and measure for FS before buying. Not any more. No one is looking for the tall monsters of years ago. I always said, I could make them smaller framed in a heart beat - as soon as breeders were willing to pay for shorter. I LOVE my phenotype now.

 

[cowgirl8]

Guaranteed that spotted calf is NOT out of a PB Angus bull or PB Angus cow.

I'll defend the "big cow".
My herd average is probably 1550# - 1600#. Little cows are a waste of time up here. Extreme cold in winter and lush pastures in summer. Lots of research has proven cow weight vs feed intake is not linear. I like my 700# - 750# WW, but mainly I'm producing replacement breeding stock. Average probably 5.5 - 6 FS. Not a lot of leg, just big tanks. People used to grab a tape and measure for FS before buying. Not any more. No one is looking for the tall monsters of years ago. I always said, I could make them smaller framed in a heart beat - as soon as breeders were willing to pay for shorter. I LOVE my phenotype now.

So, thats what we have done over the years. In the 90s, we had the sim, simbra, limo bulls. Our cows were tall. Then got into angus and with crossing them this way and that, we now have shorter big bodied cows. That was our first step and it took years. Now, i just love the dark brindle color. I find it exciting to see where we can take it. Today, we kept 3 calves bulls. 2 brindle and one black brangus cross from the neighbors bull. He's pretty spectacular. I cant remember what cow he's out of, but i'll go out there and be reminded.

 

[cowgirl8]

Uh Oh !!!! The dreaded "Spotted Syndrome Defect".

What i've heard from the show crowd, spotted is back in. Apparently if you have any of that old blood, people are looking for the color in red/white, yep, red/white.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Don't chase color.

 

[cowgirl8]

The cow he is out of missing her 2nd calf would be a black dot against her and him here, actually 3 black crosses. She would have to have a pretty good excuse for it to stay.

Ken

I know a lot of people who dont breed their heifers till that second year. We use to wait and then started breeding them earlier. So, technically, we're getting a calf a year earlier and maybe 10% dont breed back. What happens then is they grow enormous if they arent nursing a calf. So we'll have a uniform herd, then a couple big ones....lol... This cow calved her first calf during snowmagedden. Like in the peak time. The calf was stupid and frozen and we just couldnt get it to nurse. So i took it in and bottle fed it till we had a cow lose a calf, i then grafted the calf onto another cow. Meanwhile, heifer grew.. If they have a second calf, they stay a good size. If not, we get this. She's on the left, much bigger than the others. Great cow, grows a awesome calf. All our cows have the potential to be huge, but if they are working, they stay smaller.

 

[cowgirl8]

Don't chase color.

Its technically accidental. A product of our mixes. I tend to keep all the really nice brindles. But, we do have all the other colors. If i can concentrate them into their own herd, i will one day.

 

[Ky hills]

• These are brick walls
• 
  
• achondroplasia (bulldog dwarfism)
• alopecia
• ankylosis
• arthrogryposis (palate-pastern syndrome, rigid joints)
• arthrogryposis multiplex (AM, curly calf syndrome)
• brachynathia inferior (parrot mouth)
• cryptorchidism
• dermoid (feather eyes)
• double muscling
• fawn calf syndrome
• hypotrichosis (hairlessness)
• hypotrichosis ("rat-tail")
• idiopathic epilepsy (IE)
• mannosidosis
• neuraxial edema (maple syrup urine disease)
• neuropathic hydrocephalus (NH, "water-head")
• oculocutaneous hypopigmentation (white eyes)
• osteopetrosis (marble bone disease)
• polydactyly (extra toes)
• progressive bovine myeloencephaly (weaver calf)
• prolonged gestation
• protoporphyria (photosensitivity)
• pulmonary hypoplasia with anasarca (PHA)
• syndactyly (mule foot)
• tibial hemimelia (TH)
• translocations

And these are only the ones listed. New abnormalities crop up and disappear because they are caught early and any surviving calves are terminal, and the herd they come from are terminated too.

I know a (human) couple that married and had three kids even though they are first cousins. They appear healthy. Their kids are all deaf.

And as for me "understanding", (@Allenw @elkwc), I'll stick to the fact that most people practicing inbreeding/line breeding don't know as much as they think they do. You can gang up on me all you want and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. The list speaks for itself.

When I had registered Angus it was in the time of the NH, AM, CA, DD situations. You test for it, or years ago they close bred a sire to so many of his daughters to find out if they are clean or not. Quite frankly, it may aggravate sone Angus folks but many of us believe that several of those traits were brought in from other breeds years back during the years of the frame race and following.
I've tried bringing in new blood to the herd through several breeds of cows using the same breed and later crosses. I've found that doing that has not been too advantageous. More often than not the new cows and bulls have been disappointing in a variety of ways.
Not all but certainly a notable amount.
I've been well pleased with retaining heifers and bulls. To me it lets me know what's going on with their genetic potential and what needs to be worked on.
Like @cowgirl8 we have a variation in color pattern both red and black, BWF and RWF and a few brindles, but the phenotype is getting more uniform.
We are now bringing in an outcross Simmental bull for sone added growth on the next generation of calves.

 

[elkwc]

• These are brick walls
• 
  
• achondroplasia (bulldog dwarfism)
• alopecia
• ankylosis
• arthrogryposis (palate-pastern syndrome, rigid joints)
• arthrogryposis multiplex (AM, curly calf syndrome)
• brachynathia inferior (parrot mouth)
• cryptorchidism
• dermoid (feather eyes)
• double muscling
• fawn calf syndrome
• hypotrichosis (hairlessness)
• hypotrichosis ("rat-tail")
• idiopathic epilepsy (IE)
• mannosidosis
• neuraxial edema (maple syrup urine disease)
• neuropathic hydrocephalus (NH, "water-head")
• oculocutaneous hypopigmentation (white eyes)
• osteopetrosis (marble bone disease)
• polydactyly (extra toes)
• progressive bovine myeloencephaly (weaver calf)
• prolonged gestation
• protoporphyria (photosensitivity)
• pulmonary hypoplasia with anasarca (PHA)
• syndactyly (mule foot)
• tibial hemimelia (TH)
• translocations

And these are only the ones listed. New abnormalities crop up and disappear because they are caught early and any surviving calves are terminal, and the herd they come from are terminated too.

I know a (human) couple that married and had three kids even though they are first cousins. They appear healthy. Their kids are all deaf.

And as for me "understanding", (@Allenw @elkwc), I'll stick to the fact that most people practicing inbreeding/line breeding don't know as much as they think they do. You can gang up on me all you want and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. The list speaks for itself.

I will say there are more PB breeders today don't know as much as they think they do. Look at all of the current issues. Bad feet and legs, bad udders and teats, bad docility, poor growth. These aren't because of line breeding. They are because of using unproven outcross sires every generation. A herd with a common thread running through it will have less issues and be more uniform.

 

[Allenw]

And how do you "deal" with genetic defects before they show up? How do you avoid them?

Inbreeding to bring them out and cull carriers.

 

[Travlr]

Inbreeding to bring them out and cull carriers.

(facepalm)

Sometimes it seems like the average IQ has dropped precipitously in the last few decades.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Travlr - I get where you mindset is - but, INBREEDING is used to FIND defects. And LINEBREEDING is used to increase the good traits breeders are looking for.
I always say: "It's inbreeding if you get a screwup - it's linebreeding if it works out!!" LOL

Not trying to make anyone upset either - but - I truly believe all the bad phenotype bad traits showing up in the Angus is because the breeders are chasing NUMBERS ON PAPER instead of LOOKING at their cattle and breeding to bulls to compliment the cows. Everyone is breeding for a bull with PERFECT numbers (top 10% in this and that - mainly chasing MARBLING. Marbling is an antagonistic trait to muscling. BINGO

 

[cowgirl8]

When someone goes and buys heifers or cows from a sale barn, and i know a lot of people in this forum do, how do you know that female isnt a product of inbreeding? When you buy something that is bred from the sale barn, how do you know its not a mother son breeding, father daughter breeding? Technically, you dont.
I found angus had many problems.. Luckily, we mixed them in and once they were in the mix, we switched strategies. But we did get some defects while using the angus. Havent had any in years..

 

[puzzled in oregon]

What i've heard from the show crowd, spotted is back in. Apparently if you have any of that old blood, people are looking for the color in red/white, yep, red/white.

I like what you have accomplished and what your goals are. You are not getting fixated with just one goal. I think a good
bull is sometimes overrated. I would give 75% of the credit to the cow. It takes a "good" cow to produce a good bull. The cow is
working 12 months a year, the bull shows up to work for a couple months.
I like your calves. The bull calf in the first picture would look good no matter what color hide he might wear, solid or spotted.

 

[Allenw]

Wore out my crayon, I'm done.

 

[cowgirl8]

This is the dam of the original picture of the bull prospect. She's massive. Our last 'simbra' looking cow. She's old school simbra, out of a calf of a reg simbra show heifer our kids showed.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Wore out my crayon, I'm done.

Gotta ya some more

 

[cowgirl8]

Anyone else in here see a dog and wonder what puppies out of it would look like crossed with such and such.. I saw some really weird looking dogs at a guys house we were rescuing some ceramic things from an old falling down shed. He brought these strange dogs out, they looked stupid and needed a smart dog mixed it for it to interest me. He shows and breeds them. I asked if i got a aussie i'd like to breed it to his stud dog... lol... the look on that mans face. No amount of money would he cross one of his special dogs with anything, thats called a mut. I beg the differ and for the past 45 years I've only envisioned what a cross will make in just about everything... because, .... I'm a rancher....

 

[wbvs58]

I know a lot of people who dont breed their heifers till that second year. We use to wait and then started breeding them earlier. So, technically, we're getting a calf a year earlier and maybe 10% dont breed back. What happens then is they grow enormous if they arent nursing a calf. So we'll have a uniform herd, then a couple big ones....lol... This cow calved her first calf during snowmagedden. Like in the peak time. The calf was stupid and frozen and we just couldnt get it to nurse. So i took it in and bottle fed it till we had a cow lose a calf, i then grafted the calf onto another cow. Meanwhile, heifer grew.. If they have a second calf, they stay a good size. If not, we get this. She's on the left, much bigger than the others. Great cow, grows a awesome calf. All our cows have the potential to be huge, but if they are working, they stay smaller.View attachment 31081

I know what you mean if they have a year off, I have had a few over the years they get big when not being productive. I actually get a bit embaressed about people seeing ones like that in my herd now. I have upped the anti a bit with mine now they have to calve at 2 yrs of age and everything in the herd gets just one round of AI and the with then with the bull. I shoot for everything to calve in the month of July, any that fall outside this gets found a new home. I have decided there will be no exceptions and am excited to see the results down the track. I have got things pretty tight over the last couple of years but now I want to plug up any of the cracks and take it to a new level.
On in/line breeding I use my own bulls and due to some failed semen I had a lot of work for the bull to do, he was out of probably my best cow and he got to breed a couple of his half sisters and his mother. I am hoping to get some heifers from these close matings to retain especially to his mother. Unlike Travlr I don't fear inbreeding, I feel genetic conditions if they do occur can be easily handled with the technology available today especially with the database and resources available in the Angus breed and contrary to what Travlr tries to imply whole herds have not been lost to genetic conditions in the past they have been easily managed, registered cows can even be kept in the stud herd and progeny tested for their carrier status alternatively they just go to the commercial herd and a carrier free bull used on them for the rest of their commercial life.
As far as your situation with inbreeding I doubt in the unlikely event that a genetic defect did crop up little damage would be done and easily dealt with as your genetics are not going far and wide. With recessive conditions only an occaisional cow will carry the defect and if mated to a carrier bull even then only 1 in 4 calves will be homozygous for the defect and display it, certainly not whole herds wiped out. I have been through all this with Travlr before and know his views so I won't say any more on the subject.
Ken

 

[Travlr]

I know what you mean if they have a year off, I have had a few over the years they get big when not being productive. I actually get a bit embaressed about people seeing ones like that in my herd now. I have upped the anti a bit with mine now they have to calve at 2 yrs of age and everything in the herd gets just one round of AI and the with then with the bull. I shoot for everything to calve in the month of July, any that fall outside this gets found a new home. I have decided there will be no exceptions and am excited to see the results down the track. I have got things pretty tight over the last couple of years but now I want to plug up any of the cracks and take it to a new level.
On in/line breeding I use my own bulls and due to some failed semen I had a lot of work for the bull to do, he was out of probably my best cow and he got to breed a couple of his half sisters and his mother. I am hoping to get some heifers from these close matings to retain especially to his mother. Unlike Travlr I don't fear inbreeding, I feel genetic conditions if they do occur can be easily handled with the technology available today especially with the database and resources available in the Angus breed and contrary to what Travlr tries to imply whole herds have not been lost to genetic conditions in the past they have been easily managed, registered cows can even be kept in the stud herd and progeny tested for their carrier status alternatively they just go to the commercial herd and a carrier free bull used on them for the rest of their commercial life.
As far as your situation with inbreeding I doubt in the unlikely event that a genetic defect did crop up little damage would be done and easily dealt with as your genetics are not going far and wide. With recessive conditions only an occaisional cow will carry the defect and if mated to a carrier bull even then only 1 in 4 calves will be homozygous for the defect and display it, certainly not whole herds wiped out. I have been through all this with Travlr before and know his views so I won't say any more on the subject.
Ken

1. I don't fear inbreeding... I fear the indiscriminate and ignorant use with people that have no understanding of the serious genetic issues involved. And I fear those that would promote it to people as though it has no consequences.
2. Yes, entire herds have been eliminated due to genetic issues... before genetic technologies advanced to the degree they can be used today.

From the following link: Given that Precision 1680 had sired thousands of sons and daughters, that have in turn produced thousands upon thousands more offspring, it is clear that the number of animals carrying the genetic abnormality in this and other countries' beef cattle populations is substantial.

https://www.simmental.org/site/userimages/curlycalf/November%20Register%2008%20Curly%20Calf%20Syndrome.pdf

3. I can't believe people are having a problem with concerns over something that can be serious, short and long term. Is it irresponsible to warn someone about the reasons for taking a cautious approach?

I'm done here. I've seen a lot of changes in the industry over time and some not good, and one I never thought I'd see is cattle producers defending and even promoting inbreeding. I'm disappointed that this rather innocent warning has been blown up into something it was never intended to be, but I'll stand by the warning given until someone explains how the Precision 1680 effects were desirable.