Josher
Well-known member
I would agree that AI is not always better. U can go backwards pretty quick by picking the wrong bulls AI or not. Picking proven bulls tends to be the least risk.
Least risk in a terminal operation would be to rely on the breed of the bull to do the work rather than relying on the bull to be exceptional within his breed. Bull selection is more important for a one breed herd than a crossbreeding operation.I would agree that AI is not always better. U can go backwards pretty quick by picking the wrong bulls AI or not. Picking proven bulls tends to be the least risk.
I've used almost every synch program ever developed over the years. Now, I've gone back to trying to AI off natural heats, sometimes we'll also give a shot of PG to groups we know are cycling already and others, especially heifers we use a full blown cidr protocol. For ET we always use cidr protocol. Depending on the situation, we never AI more than twice for same animal in a season (rare to AI twice at that) and then we kick a clean up bull out. Once calving time comes, AI sired bulls have the best chance as being sold as breeders, bulls sired by the clean up bulls have much less of a chance and are mostly turned in to steers before they really have a chance to develop. Also, one thing that might help save a few $$ for the ones counting every dolllar (which is my situation too, at least to a degree) we use cidrs twice before tossing them. When new cidrs go in, I tie one knot on the tail, then next year, I tie another knot, once I pull a cidr out that has two knots on the tail, it's tossed. Care of the used cidr is important if you do this. I was at a notable ag university awhile back where they were pulling cidrs and saving them for a second use but the person that pulled them, through them in a 5gal bucket of water (and I'm assuming nolvasan) submerging them, then left them there. All the hormone leaks out when you do that so those would be no good after that.At first I was a little surprised i wasn't saving more by AI but it's the end product I'm after. I'm looking for replacements for my cow herd, heifers to sell as breds, keeping our own bulls for bred heifer program and for cleanup bulls. Between those things is where it really pays for me. One thing I've wondered if u were to make it more profitable to AI is if u used a terminal bull to get growth calves and get sexed male semen to sell mostly steers. Would that turn the tides for some of u?
My son and I discussed this last night that if your cattle are any good you should have a few bull calves every year that would make good bulls depending on total numbers.Compare all costs to the costs of home raised bulls. If you do not have any home raised bull calves that are worth using it tells you that every cow you have is a cull.
We are AI off natural heats too but with a shot of estrumate on day 5 we tighten the AI to 12 days. It's still Is a bit labour intensive but I think we are actually getting the cows to calve earlier than they would with sending them out to pasture. If on average u speed them up even 3 days. Times that by say 3 lbs a day. 9 lbs x $2= $18. Starts to Add value again to AI. But everyone does what works for them. Some people don't have any time to spare or wouldn't be getting enough value out of AI to justify it.I've used almost every synch program ever developed over the years. Now, I've gone back to trying to AI off natural heats, sometimes we'll also give a shot of PG to groups we know are cycling already and others, especially heifers we use a full blown cidr protocol. For ET we always use cidr protocol. Depending on the situation, we never AI more than twice for same animal in a season (rare to AI twice at that) and then we kick a clean up bull out. Once calving time comes, AI sired bulls have the best chance as being sold as breeders, bulls sired by the clean up bulls have much less of a chance and are mostly turned in to steers before they really have a chance to develop. Also, one thing that might help save a few $$ for the ones counting every dolllar (which is my situation too, at least to a degree) we use cidrs twice before tossing them. When new cidrs go in, I tie one knot on the tail, then next year, I tie another knot, once I pull a cidr out that has two knots on the tail, it's tossed. Care of the used cidr is important if you do this. I was at a notable ag university awhile back where they were pulling cidrs and saving them for a second use but the person that pulled them, through them in a 5gal bucket of water (and I'm assuming nolvasan) submerging them, then left them there. All the hormone leaks out when you do that so those would be no good after that.
I know you mean well, but the 9 lbs aren't free (unless done on air & eating rocks)If on average u speed them up even 3 days. Times that by say 3 lbs a day. 9 lbs x $2= $18. Starts to Add value
Okay yes I realize it's not free. My pasture grazing is .85/ pair per day. X 3 days equals $2.55. Cuts into the $18 a little but My 3 days sooner was just a wild guess. I think it's on the moderate side. I doubt anyone would say that cows calving earlier in the season would be a disadvantage... more pounds, uniformity, sets them up better for next year, etc.I know you mean well, but the 9 lbs aren't free (unless done on air & eating rocks)
Reminds me of a casino friend bragging about winning $100 on a slot machine
while ignoring the $50 he spent to do it. He won $50 not 100.
Like begets like.....We are conditioned to a lot of things from a very young age and one is that "progressive farmers" buy fat expensive bulls.Compare all costs to the costs of home raised bulls. If you do not have any home raised bull calves that are worth using it tells you that every cow you have is a cull.
AI can be a very useful tool but it can also be costly. Using ai on your cows from a sire that looks good in a catalogue as an 'experiment' can land you in a dumpster fire pretty quickly. I try not to use an AI sire off a farm whose cows I've not seen. I don't care how he looks, I want to see the cows that developed him. I truly believe that you can not have a good bull without a good cow. So many people use these bulls with great looks and numbers and then they get these calves that underperform at home they're confused as to why. Usually comes down toI would agree that AI is not always better. U can go backwards pretty quick by picking the wrong bulls AI or not. Picking proven bulls tends to be the least risk.
The cow was eating whether she had a calf or not. I would maintain that every day she is eating and not raising a calf is costing money with no return.I know you mean well, but the 9 lbs aren't free (unless done on air & eating rocks)
Reminds me of a casino friend bragging about winning $100 on a slot machine
while ignoring the $50 he spent to do it. He won $50 not 100.
Me too for heifers.We are AI off natural heats too but with a shot of estrumate on day 5 we tighten the AI to 12 days. It's still Is a bit labour intensive but I think we are actually getting the cows to calve earlier than they would with sending them out to pasture. If on average u speed them up even 3 days. Times that by say 3 lbs a day. 9 lbs x $2= $18. Starts to Add value again to AI. But everyone does what works for them. Some people don't have any time to spare or wouldn't be getting enough value out of AI to justify it.
It's a valid point, if they calve a little earlier it's an advantage. You don't have to AI to do this though. If it's worth it you can give the shot before bull turnout. I've had to a couple times when bulls and cows mixed early. Both times it did seem to tighten the calving window. We're thinking of doing it this year to get a group of heifers mostly out of the way before the main herd starts.Okay yes I realize it's not free. My pasture grazing is .85/ pair per day. X 3 days equals $2.55. Cuts into the $18 a little but My 3 days sooner was just a wild guess. I think it's on the moderate side. I doubt anyone would say that cows calving earlier in the season would be a disadvantage... more pounds, uniformity, sets them up better for next year, etc.
It doesn't have to be so complicated. There's no reason for it to take until my kids take over (what a waste to build it for them and they decide to go another way). I can skip to the end, buy the cows/heifers and done. I've spent a fair amount of time at the stockyards watching cattle sell and I've yet to come across a group of calves or a herd of cattle that's so superior in any measurable way to what I can easily buy that it would be worth dedicating a llifetime to creating. What's the end goals for performance of a legacy herd like that?AI can be a very useful tool but it can also be costly. Using ai on your cows from a sire that looks good in a catalogue as an 'experiment' can land you in a dumpster fire pretty quickly. I try not to use an AI sire off a farm whose cows I've not seen. I don't care how he looks, I want to see the cows that developed him. I truly believe that you can not have a good bull without a good cow. So many people use these bulls with great looks and numbers and then they get these calves that underperform at home they're confused as to why. Usually comes down to
Nutrition and their mothers. If you aren't improving your cows, you'll never be able to retain your own bull calves, they'll never be good enough and you'll never improve. Steers make a guy more money, but the value of your future is in your replacements, which are also the most costly thing to raise on the farm. So if you're going to keep replacements they better be of higher quality than what you have now and if they're not, you are never going to improve, regardless of which AI sires you breed them to. Geography plays a role also, heat stress and cold stress can't be ignored, foot strength and range ability ... I liken it to soldiering. If you have a man that is structurally correct and in shape, you can give him a rifle and hand him a map and send him off to hump across the prairie for miles. If you have a man that has a bad foot, flat feet, tight hips, etc. He isn't going to be as effective, productive, he's going to struggle and break down. The biggest signs I see are when you go to roundup the bulls and they look like they've been to war, emaciated and broken? You're not using the right bulls for your operation. Bulls that maintain their condition and come out at the end of the season looking ok? Those are the lines you need to retain. Lots of people catalogue shop for performance, but real world performance on the ground is the ultimate test, so by all means, use AI, but the farther you look from Home and the more performance you chase, the more chances a wreck will develop. I still think you're best off finding breeders near you and doing a tour of their cows. Look for bad feet or long toes, look at body condition, look at their coat and their overall herd health, do they look happy and healthy? If they're happy and healthy it means the bulls out of them are probably going to perform for you in your environment much the same as theirs. Then if you want to find the best bulls on their place and buy some semen off their top bulls? Good plan. Keep the replacements and improve your herd. Then once you have solid replacements and your cow herd is ideally adapted to your environment, start culling. Keep your bulls in for 45 days max, get rid of the opens. Start increasing your fertility and make that a priority. Then once you've got that down, start looking at feed efficiency and figure out which animals eat less and gain more. Eventually by the time your kids are old enough to take over, they will be taking over a herd that is exceptional and you're setting them up for success. Ranching isn't a business where you can just find the perfect recipe over night, it takes year and years of development, culling, management... people have to look at their needs and develop based on those needs. What is your goal? Would you buy a bull that looks like bodybuilder Ronnie Coleman if you have 80 sections of pasture ground you expect him to roam? Then why are you using an AI sire like him? Stayability is important and I don't mean the EPD. EPD data is probably the last selection tool a person needs. So, to the point, use AI, but use it with a plan that helps you meet your goals. Look at your cows as individuals and evaluate what each one is lacking or could use, then find a sire you trust to help get her there. Every herdsman should be thinking five years ahead and constantly evaluating every breeding season. The less variables you have to change (feed, mineral, water) the more you can narrow problems down to genetics and breeding choices. If you start just throwing in random sires all over the place you're going to have a hard time pinning down where your failures and your successes are coming from. So that's my advice. Find people smarter than you and with better cows than you every year, and you will probably continue to improve.
Ya I went thru the AI class here to try to wrap my head around the cost and what all was needed... it was very pricey compared to natural breeding. No way I could pencil it out for a calf going to auction.If you are comparing dollars, be realistic about the labor costs. AI breeding takes time for heat checking at least twice a day. You can decide if your time is worth anything or is free. I suspect that your time is worth quite a bit. To me, it is not about direct costs of getting the cows settled. AI breeding allows many choices of bull and breed - generally allows for higher quality genetics. If your cows are not very uniform, AI breeding can allow you to individually select bull traits for each cow - frame, milk, growth, carcass, birth weight, calving ease, etc. When you pick a natural service bull, you are probably picking for the average of your cows and all in the pasture get bred to that bull. Depending on your bull picking ability, AI should be giving a choice of a higher quality bull and should result in better calves. But, AI takes more time and labor.
I find it interesting when beef farmers use conception rates as a reason for not using AI. I agree that some AI users have poor conception rates but bull breeders may also have similar problems. Several post mention culling open cows after preg checking. AI breeders should be able to determine if cows are cycling during the breeding season and which cows are multiple breeders. cows not cycling, cycling too often, or not conceiving can often get the problem fixed and get bred. if they do not fit into your calving window they can get sold for bred cows which are worth more $ around here. had a neighbor a few years ago that lost one calf crop because his bull didn't settle any cows even though he tested good before turning out. AI breeders that have good management skills and the time/ability to monitor cows during the breeding season could very well have better conception rates than bull breeders.Ya I went thru the AI class here to try to wrap my head around the cost and what all was needed... it was very pricey compared to natural breeding. No way I could pencil it out for a calf going to auction.
The biggest killer was the conception percentage. Even the best of the best conception rates would put us out of business. You definitely have to have a goal like expanding on genetics or some thing of that nature.
I read those statement also and also wonder what is going on there. My guess is bought cows with an emphasis on auction barn cows.I find it interesting when beef farmers use conception rates as a reason for not using AI. I agree that some AI users have poor conception rates but bull breeders may also have similar problems. Several post mention culling open cows after preg checking. AI breeders should be able to determine if cows are cycling during the breeding season and which cows are multiple breeders. cows not cycling, cycling too often, or not conceiving can often get the problem fixed and get bred. if they do not fit into your calving window they can get sold for bred cows which are worth more $ around here. had a neighbor a few years ago that lost one calf crop because his bull didn't settle any cows even though he tested good before turning out. AI breeders that have good management skills and the time/ability to monitor cows during the breeding season could very well have better conception rates than bull breeders.