BSE

[Buck Randall]

I've had good luck with show bulls just haltered in the chute. They may not know how to act for the BSE, but they know the halter means they need to stand up and behave.

There's definitely an art to a smooth collection, but some bulls just won't cooperate with anybody.

 

[Bright Raven]

I've had good luck with show bulls just haltered in the chute. They may not know how to act for the BSE, but they know the halter means they need to stand up and behave.

There's definitely an art to a smooth collection, but some bulls just won't cooperate with anybody.

These bulls are all halter trained and I am around them everyday since they pasture near the house. Creekdrive does 50+ bulls in this age range a year, she is on to something with the effect of tameness. I continue to also believe that she was not "smooth" with the pulsing and she was too frequent with the pulse.

 

[TCRanch]

I sincerely appreciate your response. It is OUTSTANDING. I was afraid to mention this because I though folks would laugh me off the board but the vet said "my bulls are too tame". She said tame bulls just don't sample as well. I thought that was far fetched. But here you confirm what she said. Maybe she is a lot better than we are giving her credit for. My bulls are like little puppy dogs. When the first one went down she said they are "too tame".

Thanks so much.

I'm glad I could help. If they start going down on you in the chute again the next time you try I would definitely see how it goes without catching their head. Just letting them stand there naturally does seem to help quite often.

I am truly amazed at the information on them being tame. She said that was the primary problem. She said if they are never stressed and then they get exposed to a BSE, they are so spoiled that they just go down. I thought she was just making an excuse.

Maybe, maybe not. I believe you've seen pics of me with my bulls - all hand feeders, like to be scratched, extremely docile, certainly tame. Only time I've had a bull go down in the chute was recently, when the vet was digging out an abscess in his foot (I don't blame him!).

 

[creekdrive]

Maybe, maybe not. I believe you've seen pics of me with my bulls - all hand feeders, like to be scratched, extremely docile, certainly tame. Only time I've had a bull go down in the chute was recently, when the vet was digging out an abscess in his foot (I don't blame him!).

TC - we've never had any of our really tame guys cause us an issue by going down in the chute as 2 yr olds or older. Just when they are young yearlings. The older they get the easier the process seems to go.

 

[Bright Raven]

Maybe, maybe not. I believe you've seen pics of me with my bulls - all hand feeders, like to be scratched, extremely docile, certainly tame. Only time I've had a bull go down in the chute was recently, when the vet was digging out an abscess in his foot (I don't blame him!).

TC - we've never had any of our really tame guys cause us an issue by going down in the chute as 2 yr olds or older. Just when they are young yearlings. The older they get the easier the process seems to go.

In defense of the young vet, that is almost word for word what she told me. She said 15 months is about the minimum for a smooth BSE.

 

[76 Bar]

I am truly amazed at the information on them being tame. She said that was the primary problem. She said if they are never stressed and then they get exposed to a BSE, they are so spoiled that they just go down. I thought she was just making an excuse.

In defense of the young vet, that is almost word for word what she told me. She said 15 months is about the minimum for a smooth BSE.

BS on all accounts. Your vet obviously isn't proficient at conducting a proper BSE and was grasping at straws. Laying blame on a bidable nature is beyond the pale.
Here's two insightful articles regarding BSE evaluations.
http://therio.vetmed.lsu.edu/bull.htm
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mana...-male/breeding-soundness-examination-of-bulls
Its been my experience that talented technicians take the time to evaluate the bull physically, perform a rectal (to not only remove excess manure prior to inserting the probe but more importantly, inspect and stimulate the glans) and are savvy with the use of the electro stimulater. Such people get a viable sample within a minute or so with zero stress on the bull and most certainly, no bellowing, hind legs thrashing & rigid and having to break down the chute to extricate a traumatized animal. YMWV

 

[Bright Raven]

I am truly amazed at the information on them being tame. She said that was the primary problem. She said if they are never stressed and then they get exposed to a BSE, they are so spoiled that they just go down. I thought she was just making an excuse.

In defense of the young vet, that is almost word for word what she told me. She said 15 months is about the minimum for a smooth BSE.

BS on all accounts. Your vet obviously isn't proficient at conducting a proper BSE and was grasping at straws. Laying blame on a bidable nature is beyond the pale.
Here's two insightful articles regarding BSE evaluations.
http://therio.vetmed.lsu.edu/bull.htm
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mana...-male/breeding-soundness-examination-of-bulls
Its been my experience that talented technicians take the time to evaluate the bull physically, perform a rectal (to not only remove excess manure prior to inserting the probe but more importantly, inspect and stimulate the glans) and are savvy with the use of the electro stimulater. Such people get a viable sample within a minute or so with zero stress on the bull and most certainly, no bellowing, hind legs thrashing & rigid and having to break down the chute to extricate a traumatized animal. YMWV

First, I agree. She has been out of school one year. She is not proficient at conducting a BSE.

Second, I need to correct you on the "stimulate the glans". You mean the seminal vesicles. The glans is the tip of the penis. That cannot be accessed while doing a rectal palpation. BTW: we talked during the process. She did palpate the prostate and seminal vesicles. And she did massage the seminal vesicles which can do two things, 1) stimulate the bull and 2) encourage the release of semen.

I still think the primary issue is the time between impulses. It is suppose to be about 6 to 7 seconds. She was rushing that.

PS: for those who don't see bulls go down during a BSE, they do. The following is an excerpt from the first link provided by Bar:

* Manual massage of the prostate, ampullae and seminal vesicles can also produce an ejaculate.

o This is a good alternative for bulls that go down on electroejaculation.
 
o You can massage the seminal vesicles to produce an erection and the ampullae to produce ejaculation. 

o This is not possible in all bulls however.

 

[76 Bar]

First, I agree. She has been out of school one year. She is not proficient at conducting a BSE.

Why would you use an inexperienced DVM in something as critical as a BSE?

Second, I need to correct you on the "stimulate the glans". You mean the seminal vesicles.

But of course, thanks for bringing that faux pas to my attention. Forever grateful. 8)

I still think the primary issue is the time between impulses. It is suppose to be about 6 to 7 seconds. She was rushing that.

Sounds as though you need a more savvy DVM or do your own.

 

[Bright Raven]

First, I agree. She has been out of school one year. She is not proficient at conducting a BSE.

1. ####### Why would you use an inexperienced DVM in something as critical as a BSE?

Second, I need to correct you on the "stimulate the glans". You mean the seminal vesicles.

2. ####### But of course, thanks for bringing that faux pas to my attention. Forever grateful. 8)

I still think the primary issue is the time between impulses. It is suppose to be about 6 to 7 seconds. She was rushing that.

3. ######## Sounds as though you need a more savvy DVM or do your own.

1. That ship has sailed. Live and learn.

2. You are certainly welcome. We sure don't want to propagate incorrect information. 8)

3. I rarely require a vet. Mostly for BSEs, Brucellosis vaccination, certifications for pelvic scores, etc. Mostly practices that require a Veterinarian certification. A BSE falls into that category. Kentucky has a CAIP program. A good market for heifers that meet the criteria. It requires a Veterinarian certification to sell under that program.

 

[Till-Hill]

Not every vet is capable of preforming a bse, we ran into that at our Cattlemen's annual semen check this year. 141 bulls took us 16+ hours, should have take 8 hours. He could not get a sample out of anything. He blamed the weather. But 2 days later next county over had their check and went perfect.

With that being said I've checked enough bulls if you do not have a chest bar or a hydralic squeeze chute a big ratchet strap top of the chute, under the bull and top of the chute on the other side works wonders. Probably no fault of the vet, your bulls just did not like the "feeling in their rectum"!

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I can tell you after 15 years, I have never had a bull go down during a BSE. I test everything from yearlings to 10+ year old bulls, Angus, Lim-Flex, Limousin, ect. I don't use a brisket bar, I detest the things! In fact, when mine are in the chute for BSE, I try to make sure they have plenty of room to stretch, without compromising their safety or that of the vet. I have been lucky enough, that the few different vets I have used over the years are professional and competent. Given the care I give my bulls, if I had more than one or two test poorly out of a group of over a dozen bulls, I would be as worried about the vet's skills as my own management.... :2cents:

Also, I have bulls as tame as anyone's, I have yet to find a correlation between that and ability to pass a BSE...

 

[Son of Butch]

I think you are being way too hard on the vet team that examined 141 bulls in 16 hours.
He averaged 6 minutes and 50 seconds per bse.

8 hrs = 480 minutes div by 141 bulls = 3 minutes 25 seconds per bull

Under 4 minutes per bull is flat out hustling when you consider that includes loading him
in the chute and releasing him for return to his pen.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron, the fellow I use never misses one using massage, he is very good and very fast. I am flat out keeping the bulls up to him. He collects into a tube that goes into an incubator and when finished them all goes to his mobile lab in his truck which is a semitrailer, also has accomodation. He tests several thousand a year.

I am a bit sceptical with bulls that don't pass when collected with a probe, I would like to see it repeated by massage before I called him a dud.

Ken

 

[TCRanch]

Maybe, maybe not. I believe you've seen pics of me with my bulls - all hand feeders, like to be scratched, extremely docile, certainly tame. Only time I've had a bull go down in the chute was recently, when the vet was digging out an abscess in his foot (I don't blame him!).

TC - we've never had any of our really tame guys cause us an issue by going down in the chute as 2 yr olds or older. Just when they are young yearlings. The older they get the easier the process seems to go.

Gotcha. Kind of where I was going with my earlier response to BR:
Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ron, the fellow I use never misses one using massage, he is very good and very fast. I am flat out keeping the bulls up to him. He collects into a tube that goes into an incubator and when finished them all goes to his mobile lab in his truck which is a semitrailer, also has accomodation. He tests several thousand a year.

I am a bit sceptical with bulls that don't pass when collected with a probe, I would like to see it repeated by massage before I called him a dud.

Ken

Ken

The vet could not get penal extension. Therefore the penis could not be examined and the BSE was declared incomplete. The vet is young. She is competent and knowledgeable. She just needs some time to develop the skills required to conduct a BSE. She probably hasn't done more than 20 BSEs in her short career. My plan is to take the three bulls to the Cynthiana Vet Clinic which is a large clinic with five seasoned veterinarians. I have used them for BSEs previously. Every bull I have taken there has passed. I would prefer the massage procedure but I am not aware if anyone over here does that.

 

[Bright Raven]

Maybe, maybe not. I believe you've seen pics of me with my bulls - all hand feeders, like to be scratched, extremely docile, certainly tame. Only time I've had a bull go down in the chute was recently, when the vet was digging out an abscess in his foot (I don't blame him!).

TC - we've never had any of our really tame guys cause us an issue by going down in the chute as 2 yr olds or older. Just when they are young yearlings. The older they get the easier the process seems to go.

Gotcha. Kind of where I was going with my earlier response to BR:
Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

There are many options. Yes. I am reluctant to give her a second chance. As I mentioned above, I will go back to the vet I have used previously.

 

[76 Bar]

Ron, the fellow I use never misses one using massage, he is very good and very fast.

Thats been my experience as well.

 

[Bright Raven]

Per conversation with Fire Sweep Simmentals, she said 30 % of their bulls go down during BSE. DVM Mike Bloss does their BSEs. I personally have met Mike over a dozen times. In fact, he does the BSEs on the bulls I send to Farm Fest in Springfield, Missouri. IMO, he is a seasoned and competent veterinarian. And he is no spring chicken. He has a hydraulic chute and he uses a chest bar. When they go down, they can still collect the bull because the bar keeps them off the floor.

 

[Buck Randall]

There's only one way that vets become experienced and skilled, and that's through repetition. Unless your vet is generally incompetent, she'll get better, and the world will be better for your patience and her persistence.

 

[Bright Raven]

There's only one way that vets become experienced and skilled, and that's through repetition. Unless your vet is generally incompetent, she'll get better, and the world will be better for your patience and her persistence.

She is fine, she just needs experience.