BSE

[Bright Raven]

This morning I had the vet to the farm to perform BSEs on five bulls. Three are twelve months. One is eleven months. One is ten months.

Of the five bulls, three went down in the chute and the side exit had to be opened to get them up. We ran one back through and got the same result. Two did fine and passed. All five exceeded the scrotal of 30 cm for a twelve month old bull. The scores were 40, 37, 37, 36 and 32.5 (10 months old). These bulls are all over a 1000 pounds per both my estimate and the vet's. The biggest was estimated at 1200. All were scored good condition and I specifically ask if any were over conditioned. The vet said no.

The vet was far more frustrated than I was. The vet suggested that I take them to the clinic where they have a hydraulic chute that can be squeezed from underneath whereas my chute only squeezes down from the top.

I have observed several BSEs. Performed by several different vets. The only variation in practice that I could identify was the frequency of the shock delivered to the rectal device. The vet hit the bulls with frequent shocks almost to the point that there was no lapse of time between shocks for the bull to regain his balance. In all three cases where the bulls went down, the vet did not get any penal extension. The back legs of the bulls locked, extended to the back of the chute and they went down completely, belly on bottom of chute.

Anyone else ever had this kind of bad luck?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

No but I don't test mine.

 

[Bright Raven]

No but I don't test mine.

I think having them tested protects the seller. It provides a data point that when the bull goes to the buyer he has passed a BSE. I have not experienced this problem previously. The vet said it happens. She said this was one of those days.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

No but I don't test mine.

I think having them tested protects the seller. It provides a data point that when the bull goes to the buyer he has passed a BSE. I have not experienced this problem previously. The vet said it happens. She said this was one of those days.

Pooh happens.

 

[TCRanch]

I've never had a bull go down during a BSE. And poor Johnson, bless his heart, had to be re-tested 3 times earlier this year. Vet said his swimmers were asleep - but they were movin' by round 3!

 

[NEFarmwife]

I've never had a bull go down either, during a BSE.

Sure your vet is competent to perform one?

 

[Ebenezer]

Was there a chest bar?

 

[76 Bar]

Anyone else ever had this kind of bad luck?

You're confusing bad luck with blatant incompetency. Been there done that.

 

[Bright Raven]

No chest bar. Priefert SO4. The clinic chute has a bottom squeeze that provides support.

My previous observations with the BSE: The vets were more measured in the frequency of the electric shock to the rectal device to allow a refractory period for the reset of the sensory system. In this case, it was tantamount to putting the bulls in a state of steady shock.

 

[TCRanch]

No chest bar. Priefert SO4. The clinic chute has a bottom squeeze that provides support.

My previous observations with the BSE: The vets were more measured in the frequency of the electric shock to the rectal device to allow a refractory period for the reset of the sensory system. In this case, it was tantamount to putting the bulls in a state of steady shock.

Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

 

[Bright Raven]

No chest bar. Priefert SO4. The clinic chute has a bottom squeeze that provides support.

My previous observations with the BSE: The vets were more measured in the frequency of the electric shock to the rectal device to allow a refractory period for the reset of the sensory system. In this case, it was tantamount to putting the bulls in a state of steady shock.

Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

The vet is a young lady. I felt sympathy for her. She was clearly frustrated. I have observed at least 5 different Veterinarians perform a BSE. The part of her game that needs to be reviewed is the frequency of the shocks. Seasoned vets usually get extension on the third pulse. If a bull is not responding as desired, I have seen them take a little break - a refractory period. She didn't do that. But at the end of the day, you don't usually tell a vet how to do their job.

 

[TCRanch]

No chest bar. Priefert SO4. The clinic chute has a bottom squeeze that provides support.

My previous observations with the BSE: The vets were more measured in the frequency of the electric shock to the rectal device to allow a refractory period for the reset of the sensory system. In this case, it was tantamount to putting the bulls in a state of steady shock.

Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

The vet is a young lady. I felt sympathy for her. She was clearly frustrated. I have observed at least 5 different Veterinarians perform a BSE. The part of her game that needs to be reviewed is the frequency of the shocks. Seasoned vets usually get extension on the third pulse. If a bull is not responding as desired, I have seen them take a little break - a refractory period. She didn't do that. But at the end of the day, you don't usually tell a vet how to do their job.

I get that. BUT literally nothing phases my vets - it's part of their job. I've been completely freaked out with a cow flipping over in the alley, a heifers' uterus in my lap, blood/pus spewing like a geyser, cows down in the chute, etc. They're completely calm and handle the situation, even if they have to go to Plan B. Or C. Hopefully with more experience your young vet will calm down, figure things out. But not at the expense (figuratively and literally) of you and your cattle. Going through the "breaking in" period with a new vet that just joined the practice and so far so good and it's just my :2cents: FWIW.

 

[Bright Raven]

Plus you're dealing with very young bulls that clearly have never experienced that kind of exam. I would be hesitant to use that vet again unless it's your only option.

The vet is a young lady. I felt sympathy for her. She was clearly frustrated. I have observed at least 5 different Veterinarians perform a BSE. The part of her game that needs to be reviewed is the frequency of the shocks. Seasoned vets usually get extension on the third pulse. If a bull is not responding as desired, I have seen them take a little break - a refractory period. She didn't do that. But at the end of the day, you don't usually tell a vet how to do their job.

I get that. BUT literally nothing phases my vets - it's part of their job. I've been completely freaked out with a cow flipping over in the alley, a heifers' uterus in my lap, blood/pus spewing like a geyser, cows down in the chute, etc. They're completely calm and handle the situation, even if they have to go to Plan B. Or C. Hopefully with more experience your young vet will calm down, figure things out. But not at the expense (figuratively and literally) of you and your cattle. Going through the "breaking in" period with a new vet that just joined the practice and so far so good and it's just my :2cents: FWIW.

I totally agree. It is expensive and inconvenient.

 

[wbvs58]

I don't have that problem Ron. The fellow I use does it by rectal massage. A couple of truck straps snigged up a bit to support them is the go with the electro though.

Ken

 

[Bright Raven]

I don't have that problem Ron. The fellow I use does it by rectal massage. A couple of truck straps snigged up a bit to support them is the go with the electro though.

Ken

Ken,

I got to say, what I observed today was disturbing.

 

[creekdrive]

We test 50+ yearling bulls that range from 10-12 months of age every year. We use 2 different vet clinics throughout the year, but the one vet is far better at semen testing than the other. They both use the exact same probe and they both use it on the automatic setting so neither is fiddling with the dials.

The one vet averages less than 5 minutes per bull (that is to measure scrotals, internal exam (I can't think of what that is called right now) take the sample and stain it on a slide so that it can be counted later). We have very few retests with him.

The other vet seems to struggle to get a sample, animals go down in the chute, they bellar and scream. It takes forever and is stressful on both the animals and ourselves. I'd consider both to be good vets overall but retests are expensive so needless to say the last couple of years we have stuck to the vet that has the better success. The only difference I have observed is that the vet that struggles to get a sample really makes sure that the bull is cleaned out before he inserts the probe. I think maybe having less fecal matter causes them to be ultra sensitive to the probe. Maybe I'm way out to lunch with that theory? I will say that the vet that struggles with our yearlings generally has no problems with any of our older bulls (2 yrs & up). I have heard similar observations from other people in the area that have used both.

Of course every year there is a few that are just hard to get a sample from. With those ones our vet will generally turn the probe from automatic to manual and fiddle with the dials till he gets a sample. Some require a bit of patience. Sometimes if they are having difficulties both vets will try a rectal massage. And I don't know why but just about every year we have found that the bulls that are extra tame (like dogs) are more likely to go down in the chute and give us problems. It also seems like once they figure out that they can go down and the procedure stops some of them instantly want to go down the next time you try and test them. Brisket bar would probably be helpful or as Ken mentioned ratchet straps can work to support the ones that continually want to go down. The other thing to try with the ones that want to go down - we have found it can help to not catch their head, just let them stand in the chute. Sometimes if they aren't pulling back they stay on their feet better.

That post got kind of long winded....sorry about that! Hopefully it was just a bad day for the boys and the next time everything goes smoother.

 

[Bright Raven]

We test 50+ yearling bulls that range from 10-12 months of age every year. We use 2 different vet clinics throughout the year, but the one vet is far better at semen testing than the other. They both use the exact same probe and they both use it on the automatic setting so neither is fiddling with the dials.

The one vet averages less than 5 minutes per bull (that is to measure scrotals, internal exam (I can't think of what that is called right now) take the sample and stain it on a slide so that it can be counted later). We have very few retests with him.

The other vet seems to struggle to get a sample, animals go down in the chute, they bellar and scream. It takes forever and is stressful on both the animals and ourselves. I'd consider both to be good vets overall but retests are expensive so needless to say the last couple of years we have stuck to the vet that has the better success. The only difference I have observed is that the vet that struggles to get a sample really makes sure that the bull is cleaned out before he inserts the probe. I think maybe having less fecal matter causes them to be ultra sensitive to the probe. Maybe I'm way out to lunch with that theory? I will say that the vet that struggles with our yearlings generally has no problems with any of our older bulls (2 yrs & up). I have heard similar observations from other people in the area that have used both.

Of course every year there is a few that are just hard to get a sample from. With those ones our vet will generally turn the probe from automatic to manual and fiddle with the dials till he gets a sample. Some require a bit of patience. Sometimes if they are having difficulties both vets will try a rectal massage. And I don't know why but just about every year we have found that the bulls that are extra tame (like dogs) are more likely to go down in the chute and give us problems. It also seems like once they figure out that they can go down and the procedure stops some of them instantly want to go down the next time you try and test them. Brisket bar would probably be helpful or as Ken mentioned ratchet straps can work to support the ones that continually want to go down. The other thing to try with the ones that want to go down - we have found it can help to not catch their head, just let them stand in the chute. Sometimes if they aren't pulling back they stay on their feet better.

That post got kind of long winded....sorry about that! Hopefully it was just a bad day for the boys and the next time everything goes smoother.

I sincerely appreciate your response. It is OUTSTANDING. I was afraid to mention this because I thought folks would laugh me off the board but the vet said "my bulls are too tame". She said tame bulls just don't sample as well. I thought that was far fetched. But here you confirm what she said. Maybe she is a lot better than we are giving her credit for. My bulls are like little puppy dogs. When the first one went down she said they are "too tame".

Thanks so much.

 

[Son of Butch]

This morning I had the vet to the farm to perform BSEs on five bulls.
Of the five bulls, three went down in the chute and the side exit had to be opened to get them up.

The only variation in practice that I could identify was the frequency of the shock delivered to the rectal device.... almost to the point that there was no lapse of time between shocks....
In all three cases where the bulls went down, the vet did not get any penal extension.

You said she was frustrated, well she may end up frustrated for her entire life because...
she sure doesn't know how to treat a fellow.

 

[creekdrive]

I sincerely appreciate your response. It is OUTSTANDING. I was afraid to mention this because I though folks would laugh me off the board but the vet said "my bulls are too tame". She said tame bulls just don't sample as well. I thought that was far fetched. But here you confirm what she said. Maybe she is a lot better than we are giving her credit for. My bulls are like little puppy dogs. When the first one went down she said they are "too tame".

Thanks so much.

I'm glad I could help. If they start going down on you in the chute again the next time you try I would definitely see how it goes without catching their head. Just letting them stand there naturally does seem to help quite often.

 

[Bright Raven]

I sincerely appreciate your response. It is OUTSTANDING. I was afraid to mention this because I though folks would laugh me off the board but the vet said "my bulls are too tame". She said tame bulls just don't sample as well. I thought that was far fetched. But here you confirm what she said. Maybe she is a lot better than we are giving her credit for. My bulls are like little puppy dogs. When the first one went down she said they are "too tame".

Thanks so much.

I'm glad I could help. If they start going down on you in the chute again the next time you try I would definitely see how it goes without catching their head. Just letting them stand there naturally does seem to help quite often.

I am truly amazed at the information on them being tame. She said that was the primary problem. She said if they are never stressed and then they get exposed to a BSE, they are so spoiled that they just go down. I thought she was just making an excuse.