Breeding for Longivity

[Stocker Steve]

There has been a lot of discussion in the grazing groups on the importance of cow longevity. There are also some EPD metrics in this area, but the values do not seem to vary much. Most breeding suggestions are that cross breeding should nets you one more calf per cow. What do you think are keys to increasing the longevity of cows in your herd ?

 

[dun]

electing for offspring from the oldest cows that are still producing good calves.

 

[bse]

Heifers out of cows with longevity should do better.
Been hearing through mineral things about some stuff that in my mind could play a part.
There saying around day 80 a heifer fetus will produce all the eggs that she will ever have in her life, so the cow needs to be on a really good mineral around day 80, now in my mind if this is the case, more eggs=longevity so where I had been cutting back to cheaper mineral after breeding season I won't be changing it up anymore.

 

[Ebenezer]

This is a tough nut to crack due to the current USA mindset of cattle, AI is better, next generation is superior "because", herd prefixes make cattle great, all cattle can live in any environment regardless, carcass traits and growth are supreme in valuation, ...

First, the herd needs to fit the environment.

Then you do not need to breed for extremes that would eliminate portions of the herd regardless of selection. Extremes would include too big or too little, too much milk or too much selection for carcass. You have to focus on the cow for maternal goodness rather than focus on the bulls or sires as the expression of achievement. Honestly, some bulls from great cows that sire great females do not look like the textbook or show ring greats.

Then (the biggie) you need cows that can replicate themselves and that requires using bulls which are balanced with the desired cow(s). These are hard to buy and easier to raise yourself. There are great cows with genetics that do not allow them to replace themselves. Some hope that the small cow that raises big calves will be "the one". She seldom is. If her genetics were stable she would produce cattle like herself and not different from herself.

I personally do not think that crossbred cows will be great if the source breeds are not selected for solid traits. They can mask problems better but they still carry problems. Udders, feet and legs, hooves and temperament will all carry over.

Opinion: easier to accomplish with linebreeding. Lines can succeed or fail. If they fail, then good, one set of problem cows or animals gone and room for other better animals on the farm. You have more fixed traits and know more about a linebred group than you ever will with outcrosses even within a breed with registered animals. All is easier if I think that my aim is maternally superior cows and the bulls will be what they will be and look like they will look due to the selection pressure for the benefit of the future females. A diabolical thought in most circles.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Focusing on old cows with good calves makes sense.

What do you think of operators who brag about flipping their cow herd after 3 or 4 years of super dupper bulls?

 

[Nesikep]

Heifers out of cows with longevity should do better.
Been hearing through mineral things about some stuff that in my mind could play a part.
There saying around day 80 a heifer fetus will produce all the eggs that she will ever have in her life, so the cow needs to be on a really good mineral around day 80, now in my mind if this is the case, more eggs=longevity so where I had been cutting back to cheaper mineral after breeding season I won't be changing it up anymore.

The number of eggs is irrelevant.. they have PLENTY for a VERY long life.. think about it.. they're only going to be using about 5 per year (couple heats before turnout?) I'm sure that 99% of the time they fail for some other reason, sterility can be caused by infections, inability to properly process food, etc.

The first thing to do when selecting for longevity is get rid of problems.. hooves and udders at the top of that list... Attitude too.. who wants to have an old witch around for 25 years?? In order to keep the udders good, you may have to reduce the milking ability a little back from extreme, though I do have some heavy milking cows with perfect udders after 16 calves.
A lot of the rest of it will just be a crapshoot.. they can hurt themselves in SO many ways!

 

[ANAZAZI]

My entire breeding program focuses on longevity in the producing cow. Longevity might be important, but what lies underneath is far more important - the cow that does not fail with her fourteenth calf has not failed before either! The genetics of cows that end up virtually resistant to culling, these genetics spare the herdsman vast amounts of labour and worries, not to mention money. Get your bulls from older, proven cows, make sure these (young) bulls always are used on the older, proven cows as well as on other cows. Soon enough you have young bulls with three or four old and proven cows behind them!

 

[JWBrahman]

All of my registered cows come from cows that made it past 10 years in this environment.

 

[Stocker Steve]

My entire breeding program focuses on longevity in the producing cow. Longevity might be important, but what lies underneath is far more important - the cow that does not fail with her fourteenth calf has not failed before either!

It is a little harder to do this when buying in cows, but if you know why the cows are for sale then this approach can still work.

 

[Aaron]

My entire breeding program focuses on longevity in the producing cow. Longevity might be important, but what lies underneath is far more important - the cow that does not fail with her fourteenth calf has not failed before either!

It is a little harder to do this when buying in cows, but if you know why the cows are for sale then this approach can still work.

Complete dispersals are best.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Raise your own cows. Buying cows = not breeding. Raising your own cattle, making a surplus, and culling to get back to the right number, rinse and repeat = breeding.
If one can not accumulate the effects of culling and bull choices it does not matter how long the process takes.

Auction cattle is not breeding - it is multiplying. Questions?

 

[TexasBred]

Not one in a thousand cows dies of old age.

 

[Stocker Steve]

The bigger operators in this area tend to have two herds:

1) a seed stock herd they AI once, and calve early
2) a commercial herd they put purchased cows into, and calves a bit later

Since many of the commercial cows are X bred, and they are not chasing highest EPD nos, they tend to last longer.

 

[Nesikep]

I agree with Anazazi.. if you're buying auction cattle on a regular basis, you're not breeding with a defined goal in mind and you're taking a step backward with each cow you buy.. It will be pretty rare you get an exceptional cow that can really contribute to a breeding program that way.
TB, you're right too... no cow dies of old age, they just get sent to the packing house because of it, and it's probably because they messed up somehow, and that part may be due to old age.

 

[Ebenezer]

What do you think of operators who brag about flipping their cow herd after 3 or 4 years of super dupper bulls?

Most registered Angus herds last for 7 years, on the average. "Nuf said.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I agree with Anazazi.. if you're buying auction cattle on a regular basis, you're not breeding with a defined goal in mind and you're taking a step backward with each cow you buy.. It will be pretty rare you get an exceptional cow that can really contribute to a breeding program that way.

If you buy cows that were sorted off for old age, you are certainly getting some longevity, even if they are not exceptional cows. A potential problem here is low cull value.
If you buy bred heifers you will have more fallout. The upside here is 30 month olds make flavorful freezer beef, and we can more than recoup our $$$.
Our latest effort is to buy open heifers from an aggressive breeder. He culls heifer calves if their WW epd is not pushing 100#. I am not so keen on extremely high growth and sort off the moderate sized heifer calves to add to our replacement herd. Need to add cow age to our selection criteria.
Between retained and purchased calves - - we are currently calving out about 25% heifers. This will increase cull'in pressure.

 

[creekdrive]

My opinion - it's hard to go wrong keeping heifers out of old, proven, problem free cows. Almost all of our replacement heifers are chosen based on their mothers, rather than how great or fancy they look. Not that we will keep something that has a structural issue or is a total dink either. But we keep plenty of 'average' heifers from older cows. Most will last a long time and be as good, or hopefully (at least that is the goal) even better than their dam. We also don't have a problem keeping a heifer out of a heifer that is out of a really good cow. Some of the cow lines in the herd are pretty close to foolproof at this point.

What do you think of operators who brag about flipping their cow herd after 3 or 4 years of super dupper bulls?

I don't understand it at all, but there is plenty of guys who do it and seem to be happy about it. You'd always be starting over from scratch. To each their own though.

 

[Aaron]

My opinion - it's hard to go wrong keeping heifers out of old, proven, problem free cows. Almost all of our replacement heifers are chosen based on their mothers, rather than how great or fancy they look. Not that we will keep something that has a structural issue or is a total dink either. But we keep plenty of 'average' heifers from older cows. Most will last a long time and be as good, or hopefully (at least that is the goal) even better than their dam. We also don't have a problem keeping a heifer out of a heifer that is out of a really good cow. Some of the cow lines in the herd are pretty close to foolproof at this point.

What do you think of operators who brag about flipping their cow herd after 3 or 4 years of super dupper bulls?

I don't understand it at all, but there is plenty of guys who do it and seem to be happy about it. You'd always be starting over from scratch. To each their own though.

The 'love' button at the bottom doesn't work, so I had to make a post to say how I completely agree with everything CD said.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I just re read part of Newman Turner' 1952 Herdsmanship book. No DNA or EPD numbers back then, so he focused on identifying "self breeders" who were prepotent for key traits. He felt culling was a negative practice, and that focusing more on selection would result in a better herd. The how to example that stuck with me was selecting bulls from top cow families in closely bred herds.

 

[Ebenezer]

If you are doing all of the right things, culling should be heavy in the early learning and sifting years and should decrease to minimal amounts as you fine tune, learn and develop animals that fit your environment. If you stay at a high or constant level of necessary culling for things other than age or physical injury you need to find somebody near you who is doing minimal culling and find out the differences.