Breeding for Longivity
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Stocker Steve
Well-known member
The Beef magazine ran another what is a heifer worth article this month. A couple things were interesting - - including a graph of % (of herd average) profit based on age. It really started dropping fast after 5 calves (or 7 years old). I have seem some data on weaning weight based on cow age but this was a different angle.
Another interesting thing was they did not include the cost (depreciation) of replacements. So, if replacements cost the same as culls... then you should be moving the older girls down the road. But if replacements are spendy ... then you need to modify the percent profit graph. :nod:
Another interesting thing was they did not include the cost (depreciation) of replacements. So, if replacements cost the same as culls... then you should be moving the older girls down the road. But if replacements are spendy ... then you need to modify the percent profit graph. :nod:
Nesikep
Well-known member
That's all fine and dandy, if you have no plan on breeding for longevity, and chase market fads.. If you have a plan, and you have good older cows, I see no reason to get rid of them unless your genetics have actually improved enough that they're falling behind in one aspect or another.. I have found that progress is usually slow enough that in 1 good cow's lifetime, she won't be 'outdated'.. It also depends on what you call 'old'.. if an 8 year old cow is considered old enough to cull, or if it's a 15 year old. I find you have the most culls in the first 3 calves anyhow... The first calvers for calving trouble, the second timers for not breeding back, and a last chance on the 3rd calvers if they haven't been making good calves by now (I've had some that didn't make a great first calf, but thunderous 3rd calves).. Once you're over the big culling, sure, you'll have a couple here and there that fall out of line, but for the most part they'll usually do well into old age.
If you cull 8 year olds, you have to keep a heifer for 2 years to replace her.. If you compare to the 15 year old, she can be buried on the place and will make on average better calves than in her first 8 years, I can afford to dig a hole and bury her because I sold an extra calf, which is probably worth more than her anyhow.
If you cull 8 year olds, you have to keep a heifer for 2 years to replace her.. If you compare to the 15 year old, she can be buried on the place and will make on average better calves than in her first 8 years, I can afford to dig a hole and bury her because I sold an extra calf, which is probably worth more than her anyhow.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
The drive for a program seeking longevity of the females cannot be set up on a set age to cull of 6, 8, 10, 16 or whatever age you think markets best, diminishes the most or whatever is the carrot on the end of your stick. The quest is because of a worse option: 2 and 3 YOs that will not breed back. There seems to be no yardstick to measure cows that will breed back at 2 and 3 and then fall out at 6 or 8 or whenever one deems them as used up, less valuable, best to sell, ... So I guess the desire to get a herd of cows to all be galloping through the gate when they are 15 is ridiculous. But it sure makes more sense than using a revolving door approach on bulls, lines, breeds and ultimately the cow herd.
Example: had some cows that were not needed last fall. Some were 12+/-. Good flesh, no gimps, sound and bred into 2nd trimester. Sold very well, will do good for somebody else for a few years, gave me a long time to select heifers and bull calves from them without concern of replacement. Not saying it works for everybody but it makes my life easier and the cash flow is sound.
Example: had some cows that were not needed last fall. Some were 12+/-. Good flesh, no gimps, sound and bred into 2nd trimester. Sold very well, will do good for somebody else for a few years, gave me a long time to select heifers and bull calves from them without concern of replacement. Not saying it works for everybody but it makes my life easier and the cash flow is sound.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
We had one bull that thru infertile daughters. Him aside, we usually get 100% preg on yearlings with 15 to 20% late bred. The late ones usually go into the freezer.
We had one framy 3 year old that did not breed back several years ago, but she was nursing two calves. One hers and one orphan. She was also out of the bull with big infertile daughters... Gave her a pass and AI ed her to Charlo.
So Kit would say we are overfeeding our cows. Probably so. But, for many years we also have made sure there is some Herford in the cow herd and that makes a big difference. Lately we have been using some smaller frame simi-angus bulls and the jury is still out on them.
We don't cull on age but we do have a lot of nice heifers coming up. So some of the teenagers will have to go this fall. That will be a hard day.
We had one framy 3 year old that did not breed back several years ago, but she was nursing two calves. One hers and one orphan. She was also out of the bull with big infertile daughters... Gave her a pass and AI ed her to Charlo.
So Kit would say we are overfeeding our cows. Probably so. But, for many years we also have made sure there is some Herford in the cow herd and that makes a big difference. Lately we have been using some smaller frame simi-angus bulls and the jury is still out on them.
We don't cull on age but we do have a lot of nice heifers coming up. So some of the teenagers will have to go this fall. That will be a hard day.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I get rid of some older cows here and there as well, I don't keep everything until it falls over. 2 and 3 year old not breeding back I don't even consider as a "longevity" issue, it's a basic problem that you gotta fix.. If you're culling everything based on age as a number, I don't think you can honestly say that longevity is a significant factor in your operation.. Cull what needs culling, when it needs to be done, and let the cards fall where they may.
I currently have a 12 year old that slipped her calf, she'll be going in a week or so, with a bunch of yearlings.. I'm a little short of replacements I can trust, so I won't be doing as much culling as I have the mind to this fall, but seeing as I have a huge selection of replacement quality heifers being born this year, I might keep a whole whack of them, and yes, I'll be getting rid of a few more cows that are older, still producing, but are for one reason or another a thorn in my side.. A 12 year old mean witch at calfing time with a swinging bag, her 10 year old sister that digs holes down to china and fights all the time, as well as another 11 year old that just never makes anything I can consider replacement quality... I have a couple younger cows on their last chance as well, 2 3 year olds that just don't seem to be good milkers, and a 4 year old that just doesn't have conformation I enjoy looking at... I have lots to cull, but if I do it all at once I won't have any income for too long.
I currently have a 12 year old that slipped her calf, she'll be going in a week or so, with a bunch of yearlings.. I'm a little short of replacements I can trust, so I won't be doing as much culling as I have the mind to this fall, but seeing as I have a huge selection of replacement quality heifers being born this year, I might keep a whole whack of them, and yes, I'll be getting rid of a few more cows that are older, still producing, but are for one reason or another a thorn in my side.. A 12 year old mean witch at calfing time with a swinging bag, her 10 year old sister that digs holes down to china and fights all the time, as well as another 11 year old that just never makes anything I can consider replacement quality... I have a couple younger cows on their last chance as well, 2 3 year olds that just don't seem to be good milkers, and a 4 year old that just doesn't have conformation I enjoy looking at... I have lots to cull, but if I do it all at once I won't have any income for too long.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
I've seen some say all the 5yr old cows should be sold.
On the other hand, something I've been noodling on (but haven't finalized or formalized) is how to consider contemporaries once they hit middle age (or older). Here's where I think I am for larger herds of females:
1st year -- Did you live long enough to make it to 1 and do you have a reasonable or better temperament? If not, you're gone.
2nd year -- Did you get bred and maintain your good temperament? If not you're gone.
3rd year -- Did you calve your first calf without assistance and breed back on time and not pick up any bad temperament habits along the line (like trying to kill me after having calved)? If not, you're gone.
4th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 3-5 year old cows? If so, you're gone.
5th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 4-6 year old cows?
...etc...
10th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 10-15 year old cows? If so, you're gone.
...etc...
16th year -- Assuming you bred back, you get to stick around until you don't, and then ... well ...
This way, you're not subsidizing cows that aren't carrying their share of the load just because they bred back ... and ... you're not artificially eliminating what might be an exceptionally productive female from your herd before she gives you that "awesome calf" after she's been in your herd.
Oh, and if at any time, you have more than one daughter who shows they really stink in one particular area (say udder quality), especially if the daughters are by more than one bull, then you're gone. So, if you're awesome, but your daughters aren't, you're gone.
Lastly, only keep bull calves if they're out of a female who was in the top of her group of contemporaries in terms of calving interval from 1st to 2nd calf.
On the other hand, something I've been noodling on (but haven't finalized or formalized) is how to consider contemporaries once they hit middle age (or older). Here's where I think I am for larger herds of females:
1st year -- Did you live long enough to make it to 1 and do you have a reasonable or better temperament? If not, you're gone.
2nd year -- Did you get bred and maintain your good temperament? If not you're gone.
3rd year -- Did you calve your first calf without assistance and breed back on time and not pick up any bad temperament habits along the line (like trying to kill me after having calved)? If not, you're gone.
4th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 3-5 year old cows? If so, you're gone.
5th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 4-6 year old cows?
...etc...
10th year -- Assuming you bred back, did your calf finish in the bottom ___% of the contemporary group of 10-15 year old cows? If so, you're gone.
...etc...
16th year -- Assuming you bred back, you get to stick around until you don't, and then ... well ...
This way, you're not subsidizing cows that aren't carrying their share of the load just because they bred back ... and ... you're not artificially eliminating what might be an exceptionally productive female from your herd before she gives you that "awesome calf" after she's been in your herd.
Oh, and if at any time, you have more than one daughter who shows they really stink in one particular area (say udder quality), especially if the daughters are by more than one bull, then you're gone. So, if you're awesome, but your daughters aren't, you're gone.
Lastly, only keep bull calves if they're out of a female who was in the top of her group of contemporaries in terms of calving interval from 1st to 2nd calf.
Nesikep
Well-known member
That's about right!.. Somewhere around the 5th year you see if the udder is going to fall apart too, it might not be enough for an immediate culling, but it puts them on the list.
My old Rosie didn't get to be 18 because she slouched, she had a calf every year, and even her 16th calf was in the top 25% of the herd
My old Rosie didn't get to be 18 because she slouched, she had a calf every year, and even her 16th calf was in the top 25% of the herd
TCcattle
Member
:clap:Banjo":1aut192n said:
