Breeding Fees

[Missouri Doc]

Customer bought cow/calf pair. Left pair on the ranch to rebreed cow for an agreed amount breeding fee to same bull that sired current calf ( This would be cows 5th pregnancy) Bull is a proven sire on the ranch. Cow spent 4 months at the ranch on pasture with the herd , 3 lutalyse injections. 3 vet farm calls to ultrasound cow during that time . Cow didn't get pregnant. Owner wants to take pair home. Owner didn't help with any of the above during the 4 months.
We've lost out on the breeding fee. Would it be reasonable to charge owner for
pasture?
3-lutalyse Injections ?
3-Vet farm calls ?
3-Ultrasounds

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes, however it needs to be discussed and agreed to in advance.
Contract law says you cannot change the terms or impose a new contract after the fact.

Sounds as though you guaranteed the pregnancy for $$$ and your bull screwed you.
But knowing how 1st time posters operate I'm betting you over charged them thousands
and will be just fine without more $ from the fellow who bought your cull cow and her calf.
:tiphat:

p.s.
:welcome:
to the boards

 

[LJCB]

Yeah in my mind your price would have included A-Z. Sometimes things just don't work out as planned.

I bought a flush from a breeder via private treaty and we agreed on 800 an embryo. I picked one of their bulls to use in the flush they fronted all the cost of the flush and they didn't recover a single transferable embryo.

Now I bet if I were to ask the breeder again it would be a flat fee to flush the cow so they have guaranteed money.

 

[callmefence]

Maybe you should give em some privacy........

 

[Katpau]

If I had purchased a cow that failed to re-breed in 4 months, I would be rather upset. If you then charged me for those failed attempts, I would be angry. I am assuming from your post that what your buyer negotiated was a bred cow with a calf at side. When that failed to happen I think you are lucky they did not want their money back. I would just accept the cost of Vet visits and additional feed as lesson learned. In the future I would determine a set monthly fee for housing and have the buyer pay vet costs with no guarantees. Caution buyers that infertility is always a slight risk.

Personally, if I had bought that pair, I would have been highly suspicions of your reason for selling her in the first place. The cow apparently had 4 prior pregnancy's, but how old is she? Have there been issues getting her pregnant in the past? I would cull any cow that doesn't breed in 2 months, so were she mine, I would have just purchased a cull cow and her calf. Hopefully the buyer did not pay too much. At least they did not have to feed her for 4 months.

 

[bird dog]

I would have gave the customer an option to have his money back or keep the cow calf as is. Sounds like your deal was a 3 in 1 package.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

First, Missouri Doc :welcome:
We may sound harsh, but, bottom line when you sell a breeding female with the stipulation that you would get her bred, that is totally YOUR cost. Not the buyers. And, sorry, but if I were the buyer, I would be backing out of the deal. Definitely would
not be paying for any of your expense to get her bred.

 

[Missouri Doc]

Just to be clear. This was not a 3 in 1 package. He bought the cow because he came on the ranch and liked her. She was not originally for sale and not a cull cow. We agreed to give current calf at her side for free. Just prior to taking her home initially, the buyer decided he didn't like his bull that he had at home and asked if it would be possible to leave her with us and if she rebred he would pay an additional fee for breeding . She has never had difficulty in the past rebreeding and she is not an older cow as one of you alluded to and to the jerk that was so confident that we had charged "thousands " to the buyer - you are incorrect. There was nothing that we did wrong or incorrectly. Just because I am a new poster to this site doesn't mean that we are new to raising cattle. Disappointing how aggressive, condescending and belittling this group is.

 

[farmerjan]

I do think that a couple of the comments were a bit harsh. That said, you also did not explain the situation the same way you just presented it in the above post. The original post alluded to it being a 3 - in - 1 type of deal.

If you made an agreement with the buyer to get her rebred, honestly it should have been in writing to make sure you covered the scenario that happened. A fee for the breeding, and what was included. That should have taken into account any "pasture costs" and in the breeding fee would be the additional costs for shots or whatever. You also stated in the above post , QUOTE, "asked if it would be possible to leave her with us and IF SHE REBRED he would pay an additional fee for breeding." If that is how it was worded, then he does not legally owe you anything because it was not specifically stated. I am not trying to be a B@$#ch.... I am trying to look at it as you have presented it.
Jeanne - Simme Valley has registered Simmentals, and shows, and sells bulls, and is very well versed in this sort of thing. I am strictly commercial beef, but have worked in the dairy industry for over 40 years, and have alot of friends and clients that have registered cows and have had interest in a few over the years. In the dairy world, there are contracts that are specifically spelled out so that there is no mistaking who owes what for what.

I think that your cow was "at fault" for not getting bred for whatever the reason might be. Not saying you did anything wrong either. If she is supposed to be getting bred for her 5th pregnancy, then is at least 7 years old? No, not an "old cow" but if there are problems, it often happens at the 7-10 year old age. She might just need a little boost in her system, like a multi-min shot. It happens.... but I don't think you are entitled to any compensation if it was not agreed on initially.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In "my" registered world, if I sold a cow with a newborn calf on side - I would have no responsibility if the cow did or did not breed back, because having a newborn on her side was all the proof I needed "at that time" showing she was a BREEDING female. If the calf was older and it had been long enough to breed her, then it would get sketchie as to my "guarantee" that she is a breeder.
But, if I had a scenario like what you are describing, I would not want the buyer to take her, because that could (would) hurt my reputation as a breeder. Every thing I sell is guaranteed - 1 unsatisfied buyer can ruin you - at my level of business.

 

[Missouri Doc]

This is a registered herd as well. The original post never said it was a 3 in 1 package There was NO guarantee expressed verbally or in writing as to her being a breeding female. The calf at her side was 4 months old at the time of purchase. We agreed on contract as to a breeding fee if she bred back. NO guarantees were promised. In hindsight I could/should have included breeding expenses as part of the contract but that was an oversight on our part. We posted here for to get valuable and usable information for future projects such as this. What we got instead was a show of hostility with many responders flaunting their supposed importance instead of offering friendly advice as what should be the purpose of this posting service

 

[Son of Butch]

and to the jerk that was so confident that we had charged "thousands " to the buyer - you are incorrect.

yes, that would be me and I do owe you a sincere apology... sorry.

But the first 2 lines of my answer still stands....
Yes, it would be reasonable... but no... by law you cannot change terms or impose new terms
just because you lost money, without getting the other guy to agree to it first.

p.s.
don't judge an entire group by 1 jerk... or by one S.o.B.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

This is a registered herd as well. The original post never said it was a 3 in 1 package There was NO guarantee expressed verbally or in writing as to her being a breeding female. The calf at her side was 4 months old at the time of purchase. We agreed on contract as to a breeding fee if she bred back. NO guarantees were promised. In hindsight I could/should have included breeding expenses as part of the contract but that was an oversight on our part. We posted here for to get valuable and usable information for future projects such as this. What we got instead was a show of hostility with many responders flaunting their supposed importance instead of offering friendly advice as what should be the purpose of this posting service

I hope you stick around Missouri Doc, lots of good folks here.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We hope you stick with us. You have to understand that we may not be getting the true meaning of what you typed.

I was referring to the breed association's Suggested Sale Terms & Conditions of the American Simmental Assn. - and I would "assume" all breed associations have their own wording.
BREEDING GUARANTEES AND DEFINITIONS:
Females are guaranteed to be breeders, except for:
a. Females sold at side of dam
b. Injury or neglect after sale
c. Gross neglect or willful misconduct on part of purchaser
d. Females used in ovum transplant after sale
e. Cows sold with calf at side or a female that calves after sale to breeding prior to sale date

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to figure out what's what. You said the calf was 4 months old at time of purchase. Was there some reason you had not already turned her out with the bull?
Also, you said "Cow spent 4 months at the ranch on pasture with the herd , 3 lutalyse injections. 3 vet farm calls to ultrasound cow during that time . Cow didn't get pregnant." Am I misunderstanding, or is the calf now 8 months old and ready to wean? Admittedly, the cow is a non-breeder - now - for whatever reason. Sounds like you are knowledgeable and you know what you are doing, getting a vet involved. I understand the frustration of all the expense you have incurred.
But, if you WANT to sell her, I guess I would be tickled pink the buyer still wanted the cow if she is still open.

 

[ccr]

why was 3 lutalyse injections given? is this common procedure to use for a cow with a bull?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I "assumed" the vet checked and said she wasn't pregnant, so they lut to get her back in heat with bull??

 

[ccr]

doesn't the lute cause them to abort? 3 lute injections in 4 months - i don't know anything about this and must be missing something.

 

[wbvs58]

why was 3 lutalyse injections given? is this common procedure to use for a cow with a bull?

I would also question this, maybe one initially when she was put out to try and get things rolling but were subsequent ones given too hastily and caused the loss of some early embryos????

I agree some people did jump in a bit but you were not clear with what had happened and the opinion you sought. Don't be too hasty of your judgement of us.

Ken

 

[jscunn]

why was 3 lutalyse injections given? is this common procedure to use for a cow with a bull?

I would also question this, maybe one initially when she was put out to try and get things rolling but were subsequent ones given too hastily and caused the loss of some early embryos????

I agree some people did jump in a bit but you were not clear with what had happened and the opinion you sought. Don't be too hasty of your judgement of us.

Ken
[/quote


Ken,
I had the same questions, at what point in the pregnancy can ultrasound detect (~30 days) what if the embryo was less than 30 days old, you give a shot and flush that one out, then you repeated that process 2 more times. I might have given the first one but after that I would have let the bull do his thing without more drugs. One question for the Missouri doc, put yourself in the buyer shoes. You have a cow calf pair you just bought, at 4 months the cow should already be a month pregnant and then she doesn't get pregnant in how many more months? Then the owner wants to charge you for the drugs that might have kept her from getting pregnant? Not this guy.... nope.

 

[NEFarmwife]

My question would be, why the cow wasn't already bred back if calf was 4 months old at time of purchase?