Personally I try not to exceed the natural relationship a parent has with its offspring, ie 50%. I breed halfsibs for generations, but I do it with a very specific purpose. If you had a real purpose with breeding 6V back to his daughters and the only real purpose would be to see if he carried any genetic defects and for that your sample size is too small anyway, you need atleast 30 daughters to make any safe assumptions, then I'd say go for it. If it is simply to save money then it's not a good idea.
Breeding bull to daughters
- Thread starter JHH
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Son of Butch":2zdbj09l said:
That's interesting, it was the stud that had him (Excelsior Farms) that told me the story. Maybe they just wanted the cane of semen I had on him to resell. They were really pushing him at the time they gave ne the semen to distribute. I've still have the hat with his picture on it.
denvermartinfarms
Well-known member
That's interesting.dun":2vda8z9z said:
OP
OP
JHH
Well-known member
KNERSIE":1kb146uk said:
Its not to save money!!!
Not worried about genetic faults either.
How many cows do I have Harley? How do you know? That is just an assumption that you have that I don't have enough. Your right but I would like to know how many I have ? Please tell me.
Ok now that I have that rant over. sorry but I really don't think you know how many I have.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
skyhightree1":2wf8i8wi said:
I have bred a bull back to his daughters and kept heifers. There are a couple in the herd right now.
Went to a Sydenstricker sale and someone made a mistake and bred one of their top selling bull's semen to either his daughter or mother, by use of AI'ing and embryo transplant. I think that I am telling this correctly. When the bull came up for sale, it was like someone had swatted a hornets nest with a 2 X 4. Everyone wanted it, and I don't think they knew that the people would go so mad over it. The bull sold for quite a bit of money.
Don't repeat this, as I am trying to remember which bull it was. JSCunn can help me out. I think it was Connection :???:
Don't repeat this, as I am trying to remember which bull it was. JSCunn can help me out. I think it was Connection :???:
jerry27150
Well-known member
I have used a good bull on his daughters with no problems & a lot of these heifers are in my herd, but then I switch to a different bull completely on their daughters, once had a cows son breed her & that calf was really dumb
skyhightree1
Well-known member
backhoeboogie":s1qtaljo said:
BHB No kind of issues what so ever? good mamas not crazy? tame?
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Sorry, but y'all are just applying human taboos to this deal.
OK, I get it - people are uneasy about 'incest'. They're CATTLE, not people, they have no 'morals'.
I also understand that since seedstock producers have to deal with that mindset among their potential clients, that they rarely do those matings.
There is nothing inherently wrong - especially in a commercial herd - with letting a bull breed his daughters (or a son mate with the dam, TT). If you like the traits that the bull brings to the table, you'll just be concentrating them. IF however, there are any genetic defects lurking in the background, the likelihood that they'll be expressed is increased. Close-breeding doesn't CREATE defects - it just reveals them if they're lurking there. Before the advent of our current genetic testing methods, the only way to prove a bull free of defects was to breed him to 35 of his own daughters; if all calves were normal, you could assume with about 99% certainty that the bull was not a carrier.
IMO, there's nothing inherently wrong with allowing a bull to breed his own daughters, and if you're a commercial outfit selling stocker/feeder calves - or even commercial replacements...nobody's gonna care who their sire is. Also, if you're a one-bull operation, it allows you to get at least a couple more years of use out of the ol' boy before you feel the need to replace him.
Current walking sire here is coming up on 10 yrs old. He has been relegated to cleanup status following AI on most of the herd for the past 6-7 years. Have had a few calves born to sire-daughter matings. Steers have been fine. Have kept a couple of the heifers, and they are nice. We like the bull, we like his daughters; don't mind - and not worried in the least about - the sire/daughter mating.
Do what you want, but taken at face value, there's nothing wrong with it.
OK, I get it - people are uneasy about 'incest'. They're CATTLE, not people, they have no 'morals'.
I also understand that since seedstock producers have to deal with that mindset among their potential clients, that they rarely do those matings.
There is nothing inherently wrong - especially in a commercial herd - with letting a bull breed his daughters (or a son mate with the dam, TT). If you like the traits that the bull brings to the table, you'll just be concentrating them. IF however, there are any genetic defects lurking in the background, the likelihood that they'll be expressed is increased. Close-breeding doesn't CREATE defects - it just reveals them if they're lurking there. Before the advent of our current genetic testing methods, the only way to prove a bull free of defects was to breed him to 35 of his own daughters; if all calves were normal, you could assume with about 99% certainty that the bull was not a carrier.
IMO, there's nothing inherently wrong with allowing a bull to breed his own daughters, and if you're a commercial outfit selling stocker/feeder calves - or even commercial replacements...nobody's gonna care who their sire is. Also, if you're a one-bull operation, it allows you to get at least a couple more years of use out of the ol' boy before you feel the need to replace him.
Current walking sire here is coming up on 10 yrs old. He has been relegated to cleanup status following AI on most of the herd for the past 6-7 years. Have had a few calves born to sire-daughter matings. Steers have been fine. Have kept a couple of the heifers, and they are nice. We like the bull, we like his daughters; don't mind - and not worried in the least about - the sire/daughter mating.
Do what you want, but taken at face value, there's nothing wrong with it.
I don't think it has anything to do with incest and everything to do with genetics. For me it's a matter of how inbred do I want my herd to become. Can I achieve my goal by using other genetics?
On the other hand mother son, father daughter, brother sister matings most likely happen all the time in the wild, deer, elk, horses, etc.
From the way it sounds what JHH wants to do is fine, a selective breeding. But again I ask how many generations before you would interduced those genetics again?
On the other hand mother son, father daughter, brother sister matings most likely happen all the time in the wild, deer, elk, horses, etc.
From the way it sounds what JHH wants to do is fine, a selective breeding. But again I ask how many generations before you would interduced those genetics again?
I know Lucky, and agree with you 100%. My replies were partly tongue in cheek.
With that being said however, please come up to our part of KY and try telling the old timers there is nothing wrong with breeding a father and daughters or a son and his mother. I've had this discussion and they are pretty opposed to it.
With that being said however, please come up to our part of KY and try telling the old timers there is nothing wrong with breeding a father and daughters or a son and his mother. I've had this discussion and they are pretty opposed to it.
dun":1nkzrsfv said:
And perhaps that explains the opposition then? LOL!
Been doing it for many years! If there are any genetic flaws you will see it and cull it at sale barn. If you retain the heifer (and it's what you want...meaning you really like your bull because you are double up on his genes) it can reproduce her (her daddy) likeness 75%. If its a bull calf and meets your criteria of what you want it will do the same throughout your herd. It will lock in the genetics for decades to come. Remember, if it's bad genes you'll lock it in for years too. People been doing this for hundreds even thousand of years...nothing new here
Lucky_P
Well-known member
That mindset about breeding - cattle, at least - is not confined to eastern KY.
My mother's brother married my father's sister. Their daughters (my double-first cousins) are still, IMO, two of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. I didn't marry either of them. ;>)
My mother's brother married my father's sister. Their daughters (my double-first cousins) are still, IMO, two of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. I didn't marry either of them. ;>)
Hook
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Its just going to accentuate all the positives. AND all the negatives.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Guess what I'm getting at is that you don't HAVE to replace your bull every two years. If you want to, fine, but there's nothing inherently WRONG with breeding a bull back to his daughters - or, if he's lasted long enough and been working in another pasture, back over his own granddaughters.
You don't have to look at many pedigrees - in most breeds - to find prominent sires like EXT, 6807, 600U, etc. multiple times up pretty close in a 3 or 4-generation pedigree.
Y'all do what you want, but I'm getting my money's worth out of my well-liked old boy... split fall/spring calving seasons, so he gets to 'work' twice a year, and with AI and him doing cleanup, he's not doing much inbreeding...a few, but all but two have been steers - one double-cross heifer left, one stayed.
You don't have to look at many pedigrees - in most breeds - to find prominent sires like EXT, 6807, 600U, etc. multiple times up pretty close in a 3 or 4-generation pedigree.
Y'all do what you want, but I'm getting my money's worth out of my well-liked old boy... split fall/spring calving seasons, so he gets to 'work' twice a year, and with AI and him doing cleanup, he's not doing much inbreeding...a few, but all but two have been steers - one double-cross heifer left, one stayed.
smnherf
Well-known member
I certainly can work. A few years ago when ai ing heifers, I grabbed the wrong ai gun and bred my old mac bull back to his daughter. She was at the bottom 1/3 of the group as far as performance at a year of age, but she was sound, marked right and so far has produced 2 bulls into the bull pen and a couple top heifers. She certainly isn't a front pasture, show stopping looking cow, but she calves first cycle every year and will wean more calf per cwt of body weight than most cows can.
Brian
Brian
