Black Charolais

[Taurus]

Can't speak for the others but with my simmentals it was frame size, birth weight, and days on feed for the reason of mixing in Angus like any crossbreeding, it's to make improvements. Tell me when you see a black steer do you think it has Red Poll in it? Of course not, but you do know it has angus in it, and that is basically what has happen. All of the crossbred animals that use to come in hundred different colors now come in one color so you know it is at least somewhat angus.
And what's bloody wrong with calling a black animal black? They call Red Angus red, Red Holstein red, Red Poll red. Should we call them European Angus, Cross Holstein, and Poll?

So what percent angus is a black simmental? If it is 1/32 angus, seems you weren't using angus to improve traits other than the color. In other words, trying to make people think they are angus when very little is.

I've learned here that if an animal's hair is at least 51% black, it can qualify as Certified ANGUS Beef. That's like painting a chinese tractor 51% green and selling it as a John Deere. I guess you're saying if 3% of the parts are Deere, then it is a Deere?

If they'd quit calling it Certified Angus Beef, I'd be okay with it. Just call it Certified Black Haired Beef. I mean, what does it mean to CERTIFY something? If you aren't certifying what you say you're certifying, then it's bogus.

The whole purpose of a certification is to certify, or guarantee, that what you are certifying is indeed what you are saying it is.

As CB said, fortunately the public is ignorant, but someday someone's going to expose the fraud and some people will lose trust. I know alot of people worked up over antibiotics and hormones - now here's another thing to turn people off.

Pretty sure black simmentals are not same animal to old-fashioned simmentals in few ways. I has yet heard about SimAngus being a cow killer.

 

[VanC]

There is a reason why Angus are popular and its not a color. Every breed has their own flaws and not all breed has same quality of the meat that the customers desired. Its all demand from the customers. The only one thing I don't like is Black Hereford that is selected for their color only and not meat quality.

Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few breeds that used to be red that now offer black: Limousin, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Salers, Beefmaster, Braunvieh, Maine Anjou, South Devon and probably others. Why are they any different than Black Herefords? What were they selected for if not for color only?

Black Hereford absolutely lacks of quality traits if you hasn't looked at them lately. I don't have any problems if they labeled black animals properly such as SimAngus, Chi-Angus, Balancer and Limoflex instead of a Black (insert a breed here). Most blackized breeds has offering some traits such as growth, maternal traits, birthweight, weanweight, better carcass and less days on feed at the feedlots. To be fair, some of blackized breeds haven't catch on with most cattlemen where other blackized breeds have succeed.

Yes, an awful lot of Black Herefords seem to be lacking in quality. Right now the emphasis is on the black hide. Hopefully, for their sake, there are enough good breeders out there that the quality will improve over time.

My point was that the Black Herefords are doing the same thing that those other breeds did when they were first starting out. Let's take the most popular ones: Gelbvieh, Limousin and Simmentals. Now I don't know from personal experience, but I've read and heard first hand that when those breeds were starting to turn black there wasn't the overall quality you would expect. The emphasis was on the black hide, just as it is now with the Black Herefords. Over time, the quality improved to the point where there are now a heckuva lot of fine blacks in those breeds and they've become widely accepted. Maybe that will eventually happen with Black Herefords. Maybe not. It's up to the breeders.

Personally, I don't give a rip whether they become accepted or not. I'm just saying that, from where I sit, Black Herefords seem to be at a point that those other breeds were at once upon a time. Time will tell.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

There is a reason why Angus are popular and its not a color. Every breed has their own flaws and not all breed has same quality of the meat that the customers desired. Its all demand from the customers. The only one thing I don't like is Black Hereford that is selected for their color only and not meat quality.

Can't speak for the others but with my simmentals it was frame size, birth weight, and days on feed for the reason of mixing in Angus like any crossbreeding, it's to make improvements. Tell me when you see a black steer do you think it has Red Poll in it? Of course not, but you do know it has angus in it, and that is basically what has happen. All of the crossbred animals that use to come in hundred different colors now come in one color so you know it is at least somewhat angus.
And what's bloody wrong with calling a black animal black? They call Red Angus red, Red Holstein red, Red Poll red. Should we call them European Angus, Cross Holstein, and Poll?

So what percent angus is a black simmental? If it is 1/32 angus, seems you weren't using angus to improve traits other than the color. In other words, trying to make people think they are angus when very little is.

I've learned here that if an animal's hair is at least 51% black, it can qualify as Certified ANGUS Beef. That's like painting a chinese tractor 51% green and selling it as a John Deere. I guess you're saying if 3% of the parts are Deere, then it is a Deere?

If they'd quit calling it Certified Angus Beef, I'd be okay with it. Just call it Certified Black Haired Beef. I mean, what does it mean to CERTIFY something? If you aren't certifying what you say you're certifying, then it's bogus.

The whole purpose of a certification is to certify, or guarantee, that what you are certifying is indeed what you are saying it is.

As CB said, fortunately the public is ignorant, but someday someone's going to expose the fraud and some people will lose trust. I know alot of people worked up over antibiotics and hormones - now here's another thing to turn people off.

Ok where did I say anything about what % a animal is? I guess you're calling feeder buyers, and fat buyers ignorant for wanting angus based cattle, and buying black cattle because they know they had to have angus in them to be black. What do you think buyers bought back when they wanted fat, large framed steers? Not black or solid red because they were to small framed, so they wanted red and white cattle because they were either Sim or Herford. So were they ignorant for buying what they wanted because it fit their needs, or was it different because they weren't angus?
:banana: :banana:

 

[Taurus]

Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few breeds that used to be red that now offer black: Limousin, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Salers, Beefmaster, Braunvieh, Maine Anjou, South Devon and probably others. Why are they any different than Black Herefords? What were they selected for if not for color only?

Black Hereford absolutely lacks of quality traits if you hasn't looked at them lately. I don't have any problems if they labeled black animals properly such as SimAngus, Chi-Angus, Balancer and Limoflex instead of a Black (insert a breed here). Most blackized breeds has offering some traits such as growth, maternal traits, birthweight, weanweight, better carcass and less days on feed at the feedlots. To be fair, some of blackized breeds haven't catch on with most cattlemen where other blackized breeds have succeed.

Yes, an awful lot of Black Herefords seem to be lacking in quality. Right now the emphasis is on the black hide. Hopefully, for their sake, there are enough good breeders out there that the quality will improve over time.

My point was that the Black Herefords are doing the same thing that those other breeds did when they were first starting out. Let's take the most popular ones: Gelbvieh, Limousin and Simmentals. Now I don't know from personal experience, but I've read and heard first hand that when those breeds were starting to turn black there wasn't the overall quality you would expect. The emphasis was on the black hide, just as it is now with the Black Herefords. Over time, the quality improved to the point where there are now a heckuva lot of fine blacks in those breeds and they've become widely accepted. Maybe that will eventually happen with Black Herefords. Maybe not. It's up to the breeders.

Personally, I don't give a rip whether they become accepted or not. I'm just saying that, from where I sit, Black Herefords seem to be at a point that those other breeds were at once upon a time. Time will tell.

I completely agreed with everything what you just said.

Personally I would love to see Black Hereford Assocation to open up their books and use quality stock from both breeds to improve their faults instead of use poor quality Black Hereford again and again. Through I don't get why they have hetros, soilds, horneds and mottleds if they want them to be homo black "Hereford"-like.

I just don't believe that they would focus on the black hide trait only. As for everyone that thinks a black hided animal will get a CAB, just because it's a black doesn't meant it will met all requirements to qualified as a CAB. Otherwise I would pick up cheaper black longhorns, holstein and highlands then dehorned them and sell them at the salebarn. And I doubt that a black longhorn steak will ended up in a supermarket as a CAB steak.

On other hand, why make a Charolais black, if the regular Char and their crosses are good as Angus crosses at the sale barn?

 

[fitz]

I don't think I'm trying to BS anyone, especially myself.
When I started helping my FIL some twenty years ago he was running the old big Fleck Simmental. We had a lot of birthing problems and it seems the large frame cows you just couldn't get 'em full enough to look like anything.
Couldn't afford to sell them and start in another direction so I decided to cross bred. Chose Angus.
Don't try to pass them as Angus or CAB. I call them what they are, crossbreeds. I like the SimAngus cows I ended up with and agree with sim.an.king. birthweight(calving ease)
frame score and feed requirements are more acceptable.
Was just trying to inprove what I had to work with.


fitz

 

[3waycross]

The real key to CAB is not the color. If it's blk and makes top 2/3 choice then it's eligible. The Choice part is the real qualifier.

They're are tons of "premium" programs out there the CHOICE requirement is the main thing they all have in common.

 

[Cabo]

As long as calves with black hair sell better at my local sale barn, thats what I am going to raise. If I can make changes to get more pounds at weaning thats what I will do as long as the price per pound stays the same. When the demand changes then I will change, until then its black in my pasture.

 

[Caustic Burno]

As long as calves with black hair sell better at my local sale barn, thats what I am going to raise. If I can make changes to get more pounds at weaning thats what I will do as long as the price per pound stays the same. When the demand changes then I will change, until then its black in my pasture.

Every calf in my pasture is black, I just put up with one Angus.
That is why I like red cow's always option's with red cow's.
What did I go an do bought a Super Baldie from a little 4 H girl.

 

[Post Oak]

The beef specialist from NC State

Be careful how much advice you take from these folks. They do not have to pay feed bills, pull calves, and balance your checkbook at the end of the day. Like your last post, you are missing the forest for the trees. With your climate you should be using a small efficient cow to graze as long as possible no matter how cheap you think your hay is. A live calf in fescue country should be your first concern. Not breaking the scales.

Amen! Those college boys in academia have to serve the corporations that fund their research projects.

 

[scrow32]

www.laueranch.com