Best Cattle Crosses For Unassisted Calving

[rocfarm]

Hoping I'm not bumping an old thread, but wanted to revive this as I'm curious myself:

What ARE the best crosses for unassisted calving?

Seemed like there was talk of breeding an Angus bull to Corriente cows - Is that still the consensus?

That's the consensus if you want to have low startup costs and easy to take care of cows that can survive in lesser quality forage and don't care about having 'front-pasture' cows. If one dies, you are only out around 250 to 350 dollars and whatever you paid for transport and feed.

The other consensus was that you have to take what you can get at auction, unless you pay a premium. For me, that was not acceptable because I wanted a profit, so I got a motley crew of 6 cows and a calf that cost me around $4000.

Finally, the research (and some guys at auction) would say to get a corriente or red angus/Mashona cross grass bull and put it on a larger beef cow if you purely want to focus on unassisted calving, but that gives you a less marketable calf and kind of defeats the purpose if you spend money buying expensive cows—you wouldn't put a low quality bull back on them that gives you a lower quality calf to market.

Finally, another route we explored was buying already bred cows that are in their second and third calf. These cattle would be less likely to have calving problems, especially if it was their third calf.

But again, all of this depends on what you can get for your price and at the right timing, which is less easy to do than I thought.

Bred cows are cheap in Texas right now if you have the winter feed, though. Saw bred angus in San Angelo going for about 700 to 900 per head this week on DV Auction.

Also, my new yearling, virgin angus bull will be coming in the next month or so, and I promised everyone I'll post in this thread as things progress with my on-the-cheap operation, so check back.

 

[Dave]

One of the issues with the Corriente or Longhorn crosses it the feedlots do keep real good records. Those crosses simply don't preform well in the feedlot. They don't gain as quickly or efficiently. Thus they are less profitable or even fed at a loss. They look at their records and see where they came from and either wont buy them or do at a significantly lower price. They are not the only cattle the feedlots don't like.

 

[Buck Randall]

The Southeast has a reputation for producing low quality calves (don't shoot the messenger). It's hard to put together a truck load of weaned, castrated, vaccinated calves with good genetics out of that area, so buyers discount them. Because of the discount, many producers don't see the value in improving their animals, and the cycle continues.

 

[rocfarm]

The Southeast has a reputation for producing low quality calves (don't shoot the messenger). It's hard to put together a truck load of weaned, castrated, vaccinated calves with good genetics out of that area, so buyers discount them. Because of the discount, many producers don't see the value in improving their animals, and the cycle continues.

Plenty of guys who make money on the lower quality cattle, though. Remember, investing and business are all about what you get for what you pay. It's obvious that northern farmers have better grades of cattle, but they have the corn belt in close proximity and a more stable rain supply. In the southwest we don't. At 40% of normal rainfall for the year on my place and it's October! Corrientie cattle don't mind it so much. Angus are getting sold at a big discount now. Those northern, 1400lb angus would have died by now I think.

But if I buy a cow for 250 and sell its calf for 500 each year and the cow is 850lbs and eats half of what those alfalfa-silage-corn-pearlet eating 1400lb northern angus eat, it's possible my ROE is better.

Texas does feed cattle on basis, not grade, though. But again, this is completely climate related. So the best cattle for unassisted calving should also be the ones that fit your forage and climate IMO.

Also, there are northern buyers who do come down to Texas and buy cattle to ship back north to feed. They also get some pretty good cattle.They just do it before winter sets in. Saw some of them last summer. They paid up pretty good, too. Got every calf they wanted because the local boys can't get feed as cheap.

 

[Buck Randall]

Plenty of guys who make money on the lower quality cattle, though. Remember, investing and business are all about what you get for what you pay. It's obvious that northern farmers have better grades of cattle, but they have the corn belt in close proximity and a more stable rain supply. In the southwest we don't. At 40% of normal rainfall for the year on my place and it's October! Corrientie cattle don't mind it so much. Angus are getting sold at a big discount now. Those northern, 1400lb angus would have died by now I think.

But if I buy a cow for 250 and sell its calf for 500 each year and the cow is 850lbs and eats half of what those alfalfa-silage-corn-pearlet eating 1400lb northern angus eat, it's possible my ROE is better.

Texas does feed cattle on basis, not grade, though. But again, this is completely climate related. So the best cattle for unassisted calving should also be the ones that fit your forage and climate IMO.

Also, there are northern buyers who do come down to Texas and buy cattle to ship back north to feed. They also get some pretty good cattle.They just do it before winter sets in. Saw some of them last summer. They paid up pretty good, too. Got every calf they wanted because the local boys can't get feed as cheap.

I can't say I hear much negative talk about Texas cattle. I'm talking about cattle from Georgia, Florida, Alabama, etc. A lot of people in the corn belt buy truck loads of those calves because they're cheap, and then they find out they aren't cheap enough.

 

[rocfarm]

I can't say I hear much negative talk about Texas cattle. I'm talking about cattle from Georgia, Florida, Alabama, etc. A lot of people in the corn belt buy truck loads of those calves because they're cheap, and then they find out they aren't cheap enough.

We have lots of cheap stuff in Texas, too. But I talked to the guy buying them last summer. They'll take even the thin ones strait to slaughter and turn them into hot dogs or sausage. Instant profit.

But Texas has some good ones, too. It's a big state and there are lots of places that are ideal for grazing top-quality herds. But, on balance, our quality is lower than in the corn belt.

Another thing to consider is that if you get cheap cattle that come off of good ground and a nice climate and they are thin, they might be harder to feed.

Out here there is a rule-of-thumb that if you go west and buy cattle off of tough ground/out of rough country and take them east, they tend to be easier keepers for you because they are used to lower quality forage/feed. I definitely wouldn't buy any cattle from east of I35 and brings them out to central Texas. Not likely to do as well IMO.

But when I see a cow that maintains her flesh raising a big calf that is also in good flesh out west, I immediately think I want her. I imagine her calf will do well/efficiently in a feed lot as well.

 

[rocfarm]

Wagyu cattle are not range cattle in my opinion. If you check out the way they raise them in Japan, they tend to keep them more like hogs in a pen than cattle out in a pasture. That long genetic history can probably be diluted and made to fit Texas over time, but not for an amateur rancher like myself.

They don't look structurally sound to me. Post-legged or some other problems because moving is not required in a pen…

 

[gcreekrch]

Question.

I live quite a distance from my land. If I want to minimize dystocia in my cattle, is the best method to buy older cows and put heifer bulls on them that are small framed?

What crosses tend to have the lowest percentage of calving problems? Is it just dependent on small frame bulls and a low birthweight epds?

My two bits but if you own livestock you should be there to care for them. Period.

 

[CowboyRam]

We have lots of cheap stuff in Texas, too. But I talked to the guy buying them last summer. They'll take even the thin ones strait to slaughter and turn them into hot dogs or sausage. Instant profit.

But Texas has some good ones, too. It's a big state and there are lots of places that are ideal for grazing top-quality herds. But, on balance, our quality is lower than in the corn belt.

Another thing to consider is that if you get cheap cattle that come off of good ground and a nice climate and they are thin, they might be harder to feed.

Out here there is a rule-of-thumb that if you go west and buy cattle off of tough ground/out of rough country and take them east, they tend to be easier keepers for you because they are used to lower quality forage/feed. I definitely wouldn't buy any cattle from east of I35 and brings them out to central Texas. Not likely to do as well IMO.

But when I see a cow that maintains her flesh raising a big calf that is also in good flesh out west, I immediately think I want her. I imagine her calf will do well/efficiently in a feed lot as well.

So what you are saying is that you guys out in Texas have those 40/20 cows. Have to graze a 40 miles per hour and have a 20 foot mouth just to keep from starving to death. LOL.

 

[acefire]

They don't look structurally sound to me. Post-legged or some other problems because

I guess you are talking about Black Wagyu, because Akaushi (Red Wagyu) that are in the US for over 25 years. The cows I purchased from Hugo Co. is not friendly cow country and they were doing fine. My Aksushi seem to travel 2-3 times further than my Angus cows every day. They sure handle the heat better. " moving is not required in a pen…"
What are you talking about.
All the cows have calved unassisted including heifers.

 

[rocfarm]

I guess you are talking about Black Wagyu, because Akaushi (Red Wagyu) that are in the US for over 25 years. The cows I purchased from Hugo Co. is not friendly cow country and they were doing fine. My Aksushi seem to travel 2-3 times further than my Angus cows every day. They sure handle the heat better. " moving is not required in a pen…"
What are you talking about.
All the cows have calved unassisted including heifers.

Yup. The ones I checked out on YouTube were black. There's a company down by Austin running them, and the kept their best cattle penned in the video I watched. But do t know about the reds. Still think I'll stick with the local Angus/Hereford/Brahman genetic base for the herd. They seem the most adapted to our local conditions.

 

[rocfarm]

So what you are saying is that you guys out in Texas have those 40/20 cows. Have to graze a 40 miles per hour and have a 20 foot mouth just to keep from starving to death. LOL.

We'll, in a drought year, maybe yes. But-like I said-a lot of those cows become real easy keepers if you give them any kind of decent rain/grass. I've got one right now that came off bad drought ground and onto my unerstocked place that had dry but ample forage. She had a bad limp and a bcs of about 3.75 when I got her. She has healed up, added a bit of weight, and had a little bull calf.

One strategy at the auction is to try to pick out bred cows that simply weren't cared for properly, simply give them the things a cow needs to be healthy, and sit back and let them make you some money. Guys with a really good eye and some experience seem to be able to make it pay quite consistently.

 

[rocfarm]

My two bits but if you own livestock you should be there to care for them. Period.

Can understand and expected to get this response from someone. But plenty of cattle are turned out and picked up months later. And we take great pains to build redundancy into their essential. But there are plenty of experienced cattlemen that don't believe in babying your herd. Remember, they work for you, not the other way around. And proper standards for certain care aspects will always be debated. May all our herds have health and vigor.

 

[rocfarm]

My two bits but if you own livestock you should be there to care for them. Period.

My two bits but if you own livestock you should be there to care for them. Period.

Can understand and expected to get this response from someone. Surprised it took this long.

But plenty of cattle are turned out and picked up months later, and we see ours way more often than that. And, frankly, my cattle looked to be in better condition than most herds around us this year (see pics), during an historic drought. They definitely looked better than 50% of the cattle at auction. And we take great pains to build redundancy into their essentials (Four well-fed water troughs with buried freeze-proof pex pipe, brass fitting connections, metal mesh-reinforced connecting hoses, and cages around the float valves, two tanks, always 1 month extra forage in the paddock, extra mineral, 30% organic protein tubs if conditions require it, etc). There are plenty of experienced cattlemen that don't believe in babying your herd. Remember, they work for you, not the other way around, and if more ranchers forced cattle to calve on there own, I bet maintenance costs would go way down. Even heard a well-known life-long rancher in Missouri say, "She'll only have a calving problem once if she's in my herd." And proper standards for certain care aspects will always be debated. And advertisers will always try to convince you that if you want to be a better cattleman, you'll buy and use their products. Don't mind. But reserve the right to manage my herd as I see fit in the land of the free.

May all our herds have health and vigor.

 

[CowboyRam]

We'll, in a drought year, maybe yes. But-like I said-a lot of those cows become real easy keepers if you give them any kind of decent rain/grass. I've got one right now that came off bad drought ground and onto my unerstocked place that had dry but ample forage. She had a bad limp and a bcs of about 3.75 when I got her. She has healed up, added a bit of weight, and had a little bull calf.

One strategy at the auction is to try to pick out bred cows that simply weren't cared for properly, simply give them the things a cow needs to be healthy, and sit back and let them make you some money. Guys with a really good eye and some experience seem to be able to make it pay quite consistently.

How many acres per cow do you figure in your area. I run out on the Red Desert of Wyoming and we figure about 30 to 40 acres to a cow. This year I didn't put anything on the desert until after June 1st, moved them across the highway on August 1st, and had not seen them until we gathered them on October 13th. Being as dry as it has been this year, I thought my cows looked really good. They are now out on the alfalfa field now. Depending on when and how much snow we get I should not have to start feeding until after Christmas. The last two years when I was going out to feed I was making dust in December.

 

[rocfarm]

How many acres per cow do you figure in your area. I run out on the Red Desert of Wyoming and we figure about 30 to 40 acres to a cow. This year I didn't put anything on the desert until after June 1st, moved them across the highway on August 1st, and had not seen them until we gathered them on October 13th. Being as dry as it has been this year, I thought my cows looked really good. They are now out on the alfalfa field now. Depending on when and how much snow we get I should not have to start feeding until after Christmas. The last two years when I was going out to feed I was making dust in December.

We have lots of different soil types and management options down here in central Texas, and our rains, even in the winter, can be sporadic. In my opinion, stocking rate really depends on soil/type fertility, available water, and management intensity.

For my own place, it is a silty clay loam for much of it. It can hold 10 inches of water in the ground if we get enough moisture in the winter/spring. If we have El Nino conditions and 10 inches of water in the ground going into the spring, I'd say you could easily stock 1000lbs to every 6 to 8 acres from April 1 to June 30 or even through August 30 if you get the rain and have forage to spare-even if you wanted to take half /leave half. But, in a La Niña year like last year I'd hesitate to put 1000 lbs on 15 acres without 30% protein tubs, periodic cubing and some mesquite or other brush for them to eat.

In scientific terms my place in central Texas is said to be able to grow an average of 5500lbs of dry matter per acre in a favorable year, but only 2500 lbs per acre in a year like last year. And if you want to take half/leave half and also do winter stockpile grazing, that only leaves you with about 30% to 40% utilization under my way of doing things.

If you want to go the fertilization/intensive management route, I think many places could grow 10000 to 12000lbs of dry matter with the right timing, fertilization and good water.

My ideal long-term stocking rate would be 1 cow to 14 acres and selling calves early summer if dry, maybe early winter if we are wet.

 

[Travlr]

How many acres per cow do you figure in your area. I run out on the Red Desert of Wyoming and we figure about 30 to 40 acres to a cow. This year I didn't put anything on the desert until after June 1st, moved them across the highway on August 1st, and had not seen them until we gathered them on October 13th. Being as dry as it has been this year, I thought my cows looked really good. They are now out on the alfalfa field now. Depending on when and how much snow we get I should not have to start feeding until after Christmas. The last two years when I was going out to feed I was making dust in December.

In NW Arkansas I was running a pair on an acre and a half with minimal pasture rotation. About $300 an acre at the time, early '80s. Decent bred cows were $450/600 at the time.

In South Dakota it was four acres per pair with heavy pasture rotation on irrigated ground. $835 an acre, 2005, and I was buying mostly older heavy bred cull cows for $600/800.

I made hay on both places too. Grass in Arkansas and alfalfa and oat hay as well on the SD place.

 

[Rafter S]

So what you are saying is that you guys out in Texas have those 40/20 cows. Have to graze a 40 miles per hour and have a 20 foot mouth just to keep from starving to death. LOL.

Maybe west Texas. Here where I live a cow can make a good living on three acres most years, and it's even better farther east.

 

[rocfarm]

Y

Maybe west Texas. Here where I live a cow can make a good living on three acres most years, and it's even better farther east.

up. I envy you guys farther east, hen it comes to rainfall and forage. But then again, I don't have to brush hog to keep my place tree free. Seems like mantis a little less time consuming.

 

[Warren Allison]

Rule of thumb here is an acre per cow. In some areas, if fertilized and limed to specs, broad leaves controlled, and the right amount of rain, etc., you might do 2 head per acre.