Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Son of Butch":k6ae5in6 said:
Butch - why do you think Genex is only able to charge $20 for Chisum?
Best Angus cow maker bulls?
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Butch - why do you think Genex is only able to charge $20 for Chisum?
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Has to be supply and demand.
3.1 bw (bottom 15%) probably scares many customers, but if you want stout cattle you need to use a stout bull.
However unlike most stout bulls Chism daughters are easy calvers at 14 cem.
Price can also depend on whether the stud owns a majority share and/or terms of the lease/contract with owner.
Semen has a huge profit margin. It only costs $1.50 per straw to collect, store and market bull semen.
When a good bull dies his price goes up. Doesn't make him a better bull, just a limited supply.
I'm surprised there aren't more $15-$20 bulls available. I'm thinking of ordering some Syngen Liberty $16 from ABS
he seems like a bargain to me, but the low price does make me wonder why the good deal... what am I missing?
There are a lot of $25 bulls I wouldn't use even if they were $16.
3.1 bw (bottom 15%) probably scares many customers, but if you want stout cattle you need to use a stout bull.
However unlike most stout bulls Chism daughters are easy calvers at 14 cem.
Price can also depend on whether the stud owns a majority share and/or terms of the lease/contract with owner.
Semen has a huge profit margin. It only costs $1.50 per straw to collect, store and market bull semen.
When a good bull dies his price goes up. Doesn't make him a better bull, just a limited supply.
I'm surprised there aren't more $15-$20 bulls available. I'm thinking of ordering some Syngen Liberty $16 from ABS
he seems like a bargain to me, but the low price does make me wonder why the good deal... what am I missing?
There are a lot of $25 bulls I wouldn't use even if they were $16.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
When the owner warns you by naming his bull RAMPAGE and has bottom 5% docility -1 with .86 accuracy
I think Rodeo cattle... use at your own risk... and I sure wouldn't pay $30 with so many options available.
I think Rodeo cattle... use at your own risk... and I sure wouldn't pay $30 with so many options available.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Son of Butch said:
Son of Butch
Well-known member
For simmi calving ease.Stocker Steve":9leqz24k said:
jk jk :lol2:Here are the 4 bulls I decided upon. Crv rep was very agreesive and gave me a good deal if I went 100% crv.
Connealy v-eight ( he will be used on smaller framed angus cows that need some more rib and body)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... ADew%3d%3d
Var eldorado (used on angus cows that have the body I want, supposed to be from a phenomenal cow family. Good udder and feet structure)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... GP6w%3d%3d
Connealy United ( used on my large gelbveih cows that need down sized and added fleshing ability)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... ewKg%3d%3d
RR easy express ( used on heifers. This bulls numbers did not impress me all that much, but my rep swears by him up and down. We will see)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... lpug%3d%3d
Hope all the links work and it's not a jumbled mess. Any comments, concerns, or suggestions are much welcomed.
Connealy v-eight ( he will be used on smaller framed angus cows that need some more rib and body)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... ADew%3d%3d
Var eldorado (used on angus cows that have the body I want, supposed to be from a phenomenal cow family. Good udder and feet structure)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... GP6w%3d%3d
Connealy United ( used on my large gelbveih cows that need down sized and added fleshing ability)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... ewKg%3d%3d
RR easy express ( used on heifers. This bulls numbers did not impress me all that much, but my rep swears by him up and down. We will see)
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... lpug%3d%3d
Hope all the links work and it's not a jumbled mess. Any comments, concerns, or suggestions are much welcomed.
SchenkAngusFarm
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Son of Butch":1rioqztw said:
I love my Rampage cattle and have never had a problem with them. I just flushed to female sexed Rampage semen and am doing it again in a month. I love his daughters.
To each their own though.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Well somebody must be having a real problem for him to score so low in doc with such high accuracy.
Life's too short to put up with high headed cattle.
Life's too short to put up with high headed cattle.
SchenkAngusFarm
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Son of Butch":cpa250y6 said:
You are definitely right that statistically it doesn't look good.
However, I have a lot his progeny and really like them. And I'm the first to get rid of a bad tempered cow. I do own zero bull calves out of him though so that may be part of the difference. I don't know but I love mine.
Regardless, if we all liked the same bulls and cows we'd be in a lot of trouble!
Son of Butch":25h74s8m said:
I thought the same thing!
One breeder here said he bought a Rampage son at a big sale that went bizzerk.
However they did come get him and gave a full refund. But the odd thing to me, a few weeks later,this same breeder bred 70 cows (majority of his herd) to him. From what I've heard and seen, he will probably be #1 for registrations in 2018.
I don't think there is any doubt that he will be #1.
I know that Connealys sold 18 Rampage sons in March 2017.
Connealys have their own docility score from 1 to 5.
They had 16 bulls with docility scores of 2. They had 2 with scores of 3.
Connealys don't sell bulls with docility scores of 4 or 5
I would imagine the key is knowing your cows. If you are confident that you have really docile cows it would take a monster bull to get maneaters, I would imagine. But, a long time ago an old farm woman taught me that animals will make liars out of you.
I know that Connealys sold 18 Rampage sons in March 2017.
Connealys have their own docility score from 1 to 5.
They had 16 bulls with docility scores of 2. They had 2 with scores of 3.
Connealys don't sell bulls with docility scores of 4 or 5
I would imagine the key is knowing your cows. If you are confident that you have really docile cows it would take a monster bull to get maneaters, I would imagine. But, a long time ago an old farm woman taught me that animals will make liars out of you.
Luckiamute
Well-known member
Check with ST Genetics in Texas. They specialize in sexed semen and are having good conception results with it (I had an 80 percent conception rate with it this past spring breeding on natural observed heat. They have a number of "interesting" young Black Angus bulls.Stocker Steve":1exwt936 said:
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Famous last words. :stop: Buy a large tombstone so that the entire quote can be put on for all of the world to view and little children can read and know better next time. A temperament problem that is widespread in a line or is easily transferable is genetic. It may show up in an individual and it may skip a generation. But you are going to see it for a long time. A better epitaph for a grave marker: "The best way to get out of trouble is not to get into trouble".
I have glanced at this thread along and others. EPDs are toted until we want to do what we want to do and then the "I guess everybody has different ideas", "I like our calves", "I might try him anyway" kicks in to say that a bull that combines proven -CED and -CEM or has the disposition of an idiot animal is OK because of personal preference. Either the EPDs work or they don't. Maybe they are inaccurate or have low accuracy or maybe somebody skewed the data for their interest in some cases. But in the long run, EPDs will paint a frame around a line or herd of cattle that tell you what you might expect in the big picture. On a proven individual then you narrow in on the focal point of the issue.
R. I.P.
I used the new Angus DNA test on some calves and let me tell you that either the DNA is right or Epds are right. Can't be both.
I had a bull calf and his epds based on his parents were quite different than his new ones after the DNA results.
His YW epd was around 70 and his milk epd was around 21. After DNA testing his YW epd went to 100 and his milk epd went down to +8. This calf's sire has a YW epd of 89 and his mother has a YW epd of 60. You would not expect to have them produce a calf with a YW epd of 100, would you?
So, if you are looking at Rampage his DNA test could have had a big impact on his docility epd. It could have dropped his Docility score down very low to a point where it would take a lot of calves to raise it. EXT has a docility epd of -10 but I assure you that many people have animals with EXT in their pedigree that are not dangerous or even awkward. I think it must be the same for Rampage. I think Connealy had 18 Rampage sons in their March 2017 sale. Of those 18, I think two bulls had a docility score of 3. Sixteen had a score of 2. Connnealys have their own docility scoring system of 1 to 5. They cull 4's and 5's and won't sell those
The DNA results have been a wake up call for me with regards to epds. I had been skeptical about the new epds when I saw some bulls have their milk epd drop by 20 points. Now, I see epds more as "potential" for individuals and not EVERY calf will reach this potential. So, in the end you have to go with animals you think will work.
With regards to bottle calves I have 8 adult cows that I bottle fed. Three are docile and will allow you to pet them. The other four are just like any other cow you would have in the pasture. Unless you have time to pet every cow every day they don't stay tame. I was always told to be careful with the idea of giving bulls or cow treats because the day you don't have any treats the animals might not want to take no for an answer.
I think if you have to take a hot stick with you to to be around your animals then it's time you ship some of them. I don't believe anyone on this site is getting rich raising cattle. If you are risking your life then the reward should be much greater than what any of us will make on cows or calves.
I had a bull calf and his epds based on his parents were quite different than his new ones after the DNA results.
His YW epd was around 70 and his milk epd was around 21. After DNA testing his YW epd went to 100 and his milk epd went down to +8. This calf's sire has a YW epd of 89 and his mother has a YW epd of 60. You would not expect to have them produce a calf with a YW epd of 100, would you?
So, if you are looking at Rampage his DNA test could have had a big impact on his docility epd. It could have dropped his Docility score down very low to a point where it would take a lot of calves to raise it. EXT has a docility epd of -10 but I assure you that many people have animals with EXT in their pedigree that are not dangerous or even awkward. I think it must be the same for Rampage. I think Connealy had 18 Rampage sons in their March 2017 sale. Of those 18, I think two bulls had a docility score of 3. Sixteen had a score of 2. Connnealys have their own docility scoring system of 1 to 5. They cull 4's and 5's and won't sell those
The DNA results have been a wake up call for me with regards to epds. I had been skeptical about the new epds when I saw some bulls have their milk epd drop by 20 points. Now, I see epds more as "potential" for individuals and not EVERY calf will reach this potential. So, in the end you have to go with animals you think will work.
With regards to bottle calves I have 8 adult cows that I bottle fed. Three are docile and will allow you to pet them. The other four are just like any other cow you would have in the pasture. Unless you have time to pet every cow every day they don't stay tame. I was always told to be careful with the idea of giving bulls or cow treats because the day you don't have any treats the animals might not want to take no for an answer.
I think if you have to take a hot stick with you to to be around your animals then it's time you ship some of them. I don't believe anyone on this site is getting rich raising cattle. If you are risking your life then the reward should be much greater than what any of us will make on cows or calves.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
All breeds have some or a few high strung bloodlines.
50 years ago Black Angus were known as a docile breed. They no longer have that solid reputation.
Most of it earned, some of it isn't as anytime someone gets rolled by a black cow it's blamed on 'that darn angus.'
I do applaud the Angus Assoc. for doing more work than any breed in the world in collecting docility data for breeders
to use. I heavily emphasize docility in breeding cattle, but it's a free country and if the market place doesn't demand it
then it will be next to impossible to improve any breed trait using breeding stock with traits in the bottom 1/3 of the breed. Paying a premium price for a sire with minus docility tells the market place "I Don't Care" about docility.
50 years ago Black Angus were known as a docile breed. They no longer have that solid reputation.
Most of it earned, some of it isn't as anytime someone gets rolled by a black cow it's blamed on 'that darn angus.'
I do applaud the Angus Assoc. for doing more work than any breed in the world in collecting docility data for breeders
to use. I heavily emphasize docility in breeding cattle, but it's a free country and if the market place doesn't demand it
then it will be next to impossible to improve any breed trait using breeding stock with traits in the bottom 1/3 of the breed. Paying a premium price for a sire with minus docility tells the market place "I Don't Care" about docility.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Odd that they wouldn't sell high docility bulls anymore.Air gator":3s35dkh4 said:
In 2012 they sold Connealy Comrade currently docility 36 with 91% accuracy and doc 33 is top 1%
In 2016 they sold Connealy Armory docility 31 acc. 43
Just to name two.
p.s.
below doc 10 is bottom 1/3 for the breed
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Then I question the honesty of their scoring system as Select Sires bought a Connealy Rampage son 55% docility
and 2 on a scale of 6 = 33%
3 = 50%
Sellers that create their own scoring scales do so to improve their own sales... not to improve the breed.
It's called "Puffing" believe their hype at your own risk.
They're in the sales business, and are not a consumer protection agency.
and 2 on a scale of 6 = 33%
3 = 50%
Sellers that create their own scoring scales do so to improve their own sales... not to improve the breed.
It's called "Puffing" believe their hype at your own risk.
They're in the sales business, and are not a consumer protection agency.
I like Connealy bulls. The fact that they cull out animals to me speaks to their integrity.
Their docility numbers do not correspond to AAA epds. They are based on individual interaction with each animal. Epds are theory. Their scores are hands on. They explain in their catalog that "This is NOT an epd, it is a subjective score derived from our personal evaluation of each bull." Their bulls are DNA tested and fertility tested prior to their sale. They also ultrasound for carcass merit. By the way, I haven't heard about any Connealy bulls with bad dispositions on this site or others. Maybe I missed it.
I doubt that I could afford one of their bulls but what more could you ask for when you are buying a bull at a sale.
They are also 100 percent AI and to me that is another box checked for fertility. They have culled animals that would have gone in with a bull in other programs. If they wanted to Puff their number then they would NOT DNA test. Epds can be manipulated if you are turning in weights for the majority of the calves out of a bull. DNA testing can change those numbers in a big way and you have no idea whether that will be a positive or negative impact on that bull's epds.
I have been told that there are other big-name bull sellers who do not fertility test, do not DNA test and do not ultrasound for carcass merit. So, you are taking a leap of faith that a bull will meet the potential of his epds.
Their docility numbers do not correspond to AAA epds. They are based on individual interaction with each animal. Epds are theory. Their scores are hands on. They explain in their catalog that "This is NOT an epd, it is a subjective score derived from our personal evaluation of each bull." Their bulls are DNA tested and fertility tested prior to their sale. They also ultrasound for carcass merit. By the way, I haven't heard about any Connealy bulls with bad dispositions on this site or others. Maybe I missed it.
I doubt that I could afford one of their bulls but what more could you ask for when you are buying a bull at a sale.
They are also 100 percent AI and to me that is another box checked for fertility. They have culled animals that would have gone in with a bull in other programs. If they wanted to Puff their number then they would NOT DNA test. Epds can be manipulated if you are turning in weights for the majority of the calves out of a bull. DNA testing can change those numbers in a big way and you have no idea whether that will be a positive or negative impact on that bull's epds.
I have been told that there are other big-name bull sellers who do not fertility test, do not DNA test and do not ultrasound for carcass merit. So, you are taking a leap of faith that a bull will meet the potential of his epds.
