For the poeple that can;t get accuracy from the green tip stuff I wonder if maybe they don;t have a fast enough twist barrel. With the steel replacing lead for a given weight the bullet will be longer and require a faster twist to stabalize the bullet.
ATF Proposal Would Ban Common AR-15 Ammo
- Thread starter HDRider
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kenny thomas
Well-known member
Dun, in a discussion today we talked about the twist. Is it still better to have a 1/7 rather than a 1/9 even with the lead or just plain cheap ammo? How about if it a heaver tip?dun":sdqsiqjt said:
It's basicly a property of length. For probably anything upto 64 gr pointed 1:9 should work. The problem with that is that you'll invariably run into a bullet/rifle combination that will stabilize a longer bullet then the standards say it should. By the same token you will run into combinations that won;t stabilize a shorter bullet. Or to use the old time reasoning, you may "over stabilize" a bullet. We've all seen loads that don;t shoot very well at 100 yards but are great at 200 or 300 yards. Old timers mainained that the bullet "went to sleep" at the longer range. From what I can gather that means that any instability in the bullet is neutralized and the yaw of the bullet in flight goes away. I tried shooting some 45 gr soft points out of a 220 swift. I don;t know if it was athe velocity and the bullet just couldn;t hold up but we could see a grey kind of vapor trail going down range and it was a spiral. I don;t think weight forawrard or to the rear really has that much bearing, but I don;t know that for sure. Most match bullets are hollow points so there may be something to be said for weight to the rear.kenny thomas":3tz30424 said:
kenny thomas
Well-known member
3waycross":t07p5omi said:
Saw it for sale today $210 for 300 rounds.[/quote]
Lot of it advertized tonight here for .75 a round. $80 for 120, $750 for 1000. This same ammo was .30 a month ago.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
3waycross":253in3cl said:
I can't even find them on Ammo Seek for that price much less here as that is considered an East Texas deer rifle.
Dun on the rate of twist I know my Ruger Mini loves 75 grain it is a 1 in 9
Now I don't even pretend to know all the science behind it but the lighter the bullet
the worse the group gets even off a bench rest.
All three of my .223's are 9 twist. I have always shot 69gr Sierra Match Kings and 69gr Nosler Custom comp bullets in them with great success 1/2 in groups not a problem. I have also shot 52gr bergers in the LPV with great success. I have tried some 77gr bergers and they stabilized just fine.
As far as what Dun said about "going to sleep" I think that is a phenomenon linked to boatail bullets they do take a little longer to stabilize. That's why virtually all short range bullets are flat base.
Personally I believe that the green tips are just not made for accuracy. they are meant to be dumped hard and fast and little more.
As far as what Dun said about "going to sleep" I think that is a phenomenon linked to boatail bullets they do take a little longer to stabilize. That's why virtually all short range bullets are flat base.
Personally I believe that the green tips are just not made for accuracy. they are meant to be dumped hard and fast and little more.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I don't really see the big deal.. sure, it might be inconvenient for some people.. but there's tons of other ammo for that rifle out there. If it eventually makes people flog their .223's then I might just have to pick one up. I just got a 1/2 case of 7.63x39 ammo.. should last me a while... Seems as though the 8 rounds I sent at the heels of my neighbor's two dogs got the message through to them.. they certainly haven't been back for more.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Nesikep":qyy6vnz6 said:
The big deal is this is just another bite at the apple from a different direction by the Reichsfuhrer.
This country is almost like 1930's Germany ceding it's representative power to the SS.
Before this is over we are going to have to fight or be lead to slaughter like the Jews.
Joseph Goebbels would have had a field day with our media and the indoctrination of the youth.
The media is doing a pretty good job now in making evil and immoral seem normal today with the TV and social media.
Nesikep
Well-known member
yes.. I can understand that too as a reason to make it a big deal
greybeard
Well-known member
Camel nose under the tent flap Neski. Your own rather restrictive gun laws didn't come all at once--they came in bit by bit over time.
The problem n the US is that we are no longer governed directly by our elected officials in Congress--Congress has abdicated it's constitutional responsibilty to it's constituents and we are now governed and controlled by various alphabet soup agencies like ATF, DOE, EPA and a whole bunch more. IMO, ATF wants to ban the green tip, not because it "penetrates armor", but because it is so readily available, very popular, and relatively inexpensive. When they are done with this one, they'll move on to some other popular ammo-- keep going until there isn't much left besides shotguns and .22. And of course next rattle out of the dice box will be to prohibit sale, possession, and/or use of bullets and molds for the prohibited rounds. The whole "it can penetrate armor" is just a load of bs adopted to open every other kind of round to the same scrutiny, and it's a very long list of rounds that law abiding users have had access to for many many decades.
I hate to say it, but from what I've seen, the current unregulated power that ATF has was signed into law by Ronald Reagan, but pretty sure he didn't ever think it would get this far out of bounds.
the only cost higher than opposing govt is the cost of not opposing govt.
M885 is a good solid round--not match grade by any means, but very effective none the less. I'm not a big fan of 5.56, but most people are and it sure has it's place in civilian firearm community.
The problem n the US is that we are no longer governed directly by our elected officials in Congress--Congress has abdicated it's constitutional responsibilty to it's constituents and we are now governed and controlled by various alphabet soup agencies like ATF, DOE, EPA and a whole bunch more. IMO, ATF wants to ban the green tip, not because it "penetrates armor", but because it is so readily available, very popular, and relatively inexpensive. When they are done with this one, they'll move on to some other popular ammo-- keep going until there isn't much left besides shotguns and .22. And of course next rattle out of the dice box will be to prohibit sale, possession, and/or use of bullets and molds for the prohibited rounds. The whole "it can penetrate armor" is just a load of bs adopted to open every other kind of round to the same scrutiny, and it's a very long list of rounds that law abiding users have had access to for many many decades.
I hate to say it, but from what I've seen, the current unregulated power that ATF has was signed into law by Ronald Reagan, but pretty sure he didn't ever think it would get this far out of bounds.
the only cost higher than opposing govt is the cost of not opposing govt.
M885 is a good solid round--not match grade by any means, but very effective none the less. I'm not a big fan of 5.56, but most people are and it sure has it's place in civilian firearm community.
greybeard
Well-known member
If you really feel strongly about this contact your congressional representatives and tell them to back this guy's bill.
http://thehill.com/regulati...cts-ar-15-ammunition
http://www.house.gov/
http://www.senate.gov/
It's preferable to send a letter, not an e-mail. It doesn't have to be eloquent, just respectful.
http://thehill.com/regulati...cts-ar-15-ammunition
http://www.house.gov/
http://www.senate.gov/
It's preferable to send a letter, not an e-mail. It doesn't have to be eloquent, just respectful.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
I talked with my Rep.
Nesikep
Well-known member
greybeard":17y6wtlc said:
That's where the problem lies, they take the pinky finger before the hand, then the arm..
The problem (OK, ONE of them) is that a lot of these alphabet soup institutions start out well intended (at least in some people's minds) but become self serving, and the bureaucracy expands, and everyone has to PROVE that their jobs are important or they'll lose them, so they have to come up with more rules to enforce
Dun described it very well here www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22856
Unfortunately our constitution has no "Right to bear arms" clause in it, giving the politicians more of a free hand to impose restrictions.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Americans are arming for a fight .
The government almost pushed the button on Bundy's ranch with Gestapo tatics.
Whether you agree with him or not their actions were way over the top.
If he broke the law get a grand jury indictment send the Sheriff to arrest him and
let him be tried by a jury of his peers.
Look it up for yourself how many Americans have armed themselves since the current POTUS took office.
The government almost pushed the button on Bundy's ranch with Gestapo tatics.
Whether you agree with him or not their actions were way over the top.
If he broke the law get a grand jury indictment send the Sheriff to arrest him and
let him be tried by a jury of his peers.
Look it up for yourself how many Americans have armed themselves since the current POTUS took office.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
This weekend in Knoxville, TN at a gun show there was the largest crowd I have seen since 2 years ago when the shootings were going on. TV reporters were there covering the show also. The show manager told me the weekend before they had over 4800 people pay to attend a show in Atlanta. Im not sure how many people were buying, looking, or what there reason for being there but the interest is getting higher again.
If you look at current events it's not that hard to see why people want to arm them selves. I've always carried guns in my truck but I'm in the market for a compact AK with folding stock that I can keep in my vehicle with a couple hundred rounds.
greybeard
Well-known member
Someone--somewhere--just added you to The List. (If you weren't already on it) -if you were-they just added a couple ** by your name. Welcome aboard!!Brute 23":1cgldsmg said:
greybeard":2bq35vfa said:
On it already....
Got stopped where HW 21 meets HW 77 while a gung-ho HP ran the numbers on every gun my brother and I had with us. It took almost an hour.
Had another county cop get me out of my vehicle at gun point for a deer rifle, 30-30, and .22 pistol.
I have had one friend and one family member get arrested. Both times the local investigator offered them deals if they would tell them information on my brother and I. :lol: I told them go for it if it will help them.
Had a guy who is a sheriff tell us there was some kind of note or some thing sent out when we got stopped that first time.
M-5
Well-known member
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ATF shelves controversial bullet ban proposal
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03 ... -proposal/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03 ... -proposal/
greybeard
Well-known member
For now.......
Contact: Public Affairs Division
www.atf.gov
NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK
Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are "primarily intended for sporting purposes" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.
Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.
Keep writing folks--it very likely, is not over.
Contact: Public Affairs Division
www.atf.gov
NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK
Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are "primarily intended for sporting purposes" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.
Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.
Keep writing folks--it very likely, is not over.
