Are the days of a small registered breeder over

[Brand]

With the exception of the club or show cattle people.
Have times changed so much the past five years where the small registered breeder over.
I see several things that indicate this.. one internet auctions where a seller will deliver a bull sight unseen to a buyer on the tv or computer that has seen videos etc of the bull. Once, I went to get a really good bull when I got him home everyone asked where I got him. big mistake. Five people that could of been buyers from me went to that place and bought bulls from them sometimes they even discounted the bulls to them. Another example some others ask do I AI of course I do some. Then they go around and try to AI their cows not buying a bull either. I appreciate the calls and people coming to see the cattle and talk. It has just got out of hand.
I have got in the position where people I have known for years tell me to hold a bull for them later to find out they went somewhere else to a large breeder to get a bull. Watch out for the good ol boys and preachers.
I have seen small purebred dairy breeders and swine breeders go down a similar path but I thought it was industry driven.
What are others thoughts

 

[AllForage]

Short answer is NO

Sorry you run into A holes but they are everywhere. This is part of the reason I rail against the consolidation of breeding through routine AI and flushing. The amount of bloodline choices bred for specific purposes are dwindling, but some of us are out here and ain't giving up.

Ryan

 

[highgrit]

Why would someone buy from a small breeder? I like to see the bulls dame and sire. Buying a young bull on EPD'S and numbers is a crap shoot in my book. And if you want to buy a bucket fat bull, one of the University's Bull test sales is where I would buy from.

 

[Herefords.US]

I hope not! But I think a small breeder has to buck the trend and quit following the mainstream - if they want to make their own mark. Some folks are OK with riding coattails - and in today's environment, money can be made regardless of almost anything a breeder does. But that will change - and then it will be seen who has resolve and who decides to fold their tent.

I.E. What is the definition of a "small" breeder? Mine is one with less than 50 mother cows. Others' POV?

 

[branguscowgirl]

There are so few of us (Brangus breeders) here, that we don't even have enough bulls for buyer demand. I had someone call me from Oregon this past fall wanting 6 Brangus bulls. I could not fill their request so I sent them to the only breeder that I thought might have that many at the time.

Highgrit every Brangus breeder I know around here either has "the sire and dam" or has the dam and a known AI sire for you to inspect.

I guess my answer to your question is no. I am seeing the "small Registered Breeder" stronger than ever, in my area anyway.

 

[WalnutCrest]

As was discussed on other threads ... if you're a smaller breeder and you're playing the same game a bunch of others are playing, it'll be harder to compete (and, therefore, harder to survive). So, can the guy with 20-50 mamas who is trying to compete with the guys with 500-10,000 mamas in the same world (at least in terms of seed-stock) ... probably not ... unless they're doing something different. And, by different, I mean breed choice, end market or something else.

I saw a great quote by CoCo Chanel recently that I believe applies here ... "In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different."

 

[mrvictordomino]

I don't think so......I am not a big fan of epd's mainly because I think many are fabricated, that being said, most of the larger herds and A.I. studs select primarily based on epd's...... Some of the better herds of cattle I have seen locally are folks doing a fundamentally good job selecting and breeding cattle with little or no influence of the show ring or A.I. bulls. Most of the time you can get some good genetics for your herd for a more reasonable price since their overhead is much lower. It irks me to hear someone talk about his bull being a A.I. sired calf, like that makes him better. Good solid genetics being raised in your environment would be a better and smarter choice than traveling miles to purchase from a very highly promoted program.... I think you would get better service also. Just my opinion.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Not here either. We have established enough of a reputation that we have lots of people asking for bulls and we can not provide. When I do not have a bull, I will refere the potential buyer with a few local breeders that I trust. We can not keep enough heifers around, since we have several locals that want us to call them every time we wean calves. But the Simmental breed is very desirable right now.
I have bought two very nice heifers from online sales. The experience was nerve racking, since you are basing your opinion on a video and the owner's word. Each heifer I was happy with. But I bought both from the same seller, since I trusted him after the first purchase.

 

[bigbull338]

the answer to your q is no.sure theres alot of big breeders that sale large numbers of bulls.but that dont mean they will push out the small breeders

 

[cbcr]

I think that the small breeder is very important. Many of them are more conscientious about their breeding choices and the animals they sell for breeding purposes.

I also think that there are some better quality genetics that are in some of those smaller herds.

 

[Supa Dexta]

There are still many places where there aren't big bull farms, where the herds are smaller and the reg breeders are the only supply of purebred stock and who fill the bull test stations. I do worry that those guys are ageing, and I'm not sure if anyone is replacing them though. I'm going to start playing around with some selective AI for this reason.

 

[kjonesel]

In any business there will be those "customers" who have no problem with taking all they can get from someone. They are the ones who weren't going to come back unless they could find a bargain. You hate to miss a sale to them but you have to realize they weren't your customers, they were just someone who happened to find that what you had was the best deal available. What I have noticed over the past several years are several small breeders with maybe less than a half dozen bulls are teaming up with maybe a mid sized breeder to make a nice regional bull auction. I have watched the university test sell the past two sells and over half of the bulls would have made just as much money, after you take out the fees and the extra handling costs, marketing them as steers. In our area the majority of the herds are less than 40 cows and over half the bulls are what are labeled sale barn bulls. You could talk till your blue in the face and they won 't pay an extra dollar over market for a bull.
Another problem with gearing your operation to sustain itself with the sale of registered bulls is what you do when the cattle market goes south like it did a few years ago. I keep a registered herd but I justify it for different reasons. I am able to record bloodlines, I can see the results of different matings, and by doing this I am able to improve my female base which is my goal and the bulls are a sideline with my bread and butter selling market cattle.

 

[dun]

I am able to improve my female base which is my goal and the bulls are a sideline with my bread and butter selling market cattle.

That pretty well sums us up. We sell primarily females with bulls a little extra gravy. My a wide majority, most of our bull calves are cut and marketed as steers, either as 4H/FFA market steers or via the salebarn.

 

[JSCATTLE]

I have been thinking about going registered. But with the time it takes and money I just can't make it work . all of the registered sales I've been to, it seems like rich guys trying to show other rich guys up with their check book. I can raise and sell super baldie and commercial brangus heifers without the Hassel of showing epds etc. My cows are second generation out of registered bulls and certified brangus cows. I recently bought a bull from the Santa Rosa out of a bull they use for replacements for their herd. I have a hard time getting heifers to breeding age because people around here have a hard time finding good commercial females. So it may be a regional thing . But people just don't raise good cattle here. My steers are 200 pounds heavier at the,sale barn and people comment on the price difference. Between their runts and good steers.

 

[bigbull338]

heres an example of me as a small reg breeder.last year i had a friend of mine call me.he just got his ag degree.so he asked if he could come look at my heifers.he did and picked 3 that would show.sold those calves for the show.this year i had 2 calves that would show.well sold 1 fast.may have the other sold.

 

[UG]

Unfortunately my perception is that the big are getting bigger and the small are becoming less relevant. This concerns me since I think of our operation as primarily a small, registered/seedstock operation.

In general, larger commercial producers (those who make their living raising cattle) recognize the value in good genetics (i.e. calving ease, heaving weaning weights, good carcass characteristics, etc.) and will pay premiums for bulls that are strong in these traits. In the past couple years it has been common at many bull sales across the country to see commercial producers paying $8000 or more for good bulls. However, these larger producers typically don't buy their bulls from smaller producers (like me). If they need 12 bulls, they aren't going to waste their time driving 2 hours to come to my place to look at 4 to 6 bulls. They want to go to a bull supplier or bull sale in which there is a large group to select from. Many of these larger commercial producers also want to select from large contemporary groups; they want to buy from the top 25% of 200 bulls not the top 25% of 5 to 20 bulls.

Consequently, small producers like me generally attract smaller, part-time cattle producers who don't rely on their cattle income as their primary income source. Unfortunately, a larger majority of part-time producers don't put as much value on cattle with good growth and/or carcass traits. Typically they are most concerned with birth weight/calving ease and don't want to give more than $3000 to $4000 for a bull, and some of them are still complaining about having to pay more than $1500 for a bull like they used to 5 years ago...ugh!!!

So, to get back to the original question, are the days of the small registered breeder over? No, not over, but we will capture less dollars on average for our cattle than the big boys. One way to combat this is to get involved with a program that allows you to market your bulls with others. A good way to do this is become a cooperator for a larger, higher-profile seedstock operation. Or, join a cooperative of sorts (i.e. GeneTrust, Seedstock Plus, etc.) in which several producers develop and sell their bulls together.

 

[bball]

Unfortunately my perception is that the big are getting bigger and the small are becoming less relevant. This concerns me since I think of our operation as primarily a small, registered/seedstock operation.

In general, larger commercial producers (those who make their living raising cattle) recognize the value in good genetics (i.e. calving ease, heaving weaning weights, good carcass characteristics, etc.) and will pay premiums for bulls that are strong in these traits. In the past couple years it has been common at many bull sales across the country to see commercial producers paying $8000 or more for good bulls. However, these larger producers typically don't buy their bulls from smaller producers (like me). If they need 12 bulls, they aren't going to waste their time driving 2 hours to come to my place to look at 4 to 6 bulls. They want to go to a bull supplier or bull sale in which there is a large group to select from. Many of these larger commercial producers also want to select from large contemporary groups; they want to buy from the top 25% of 200 bulls not the top 25% of 5 to 20 bulls.

Consequently, small producers like me generally attract smaller, part-time cattle producers who don't rely on their cattle income as their primary income source. Unfortunately, a larger majority of part-time producers don't put as much value on cattle with good growth and/or carcass traits. Typically they are most concerned with birth weight/calving ease and don't want to give more than $3000 to $4000 for a bull, and some of them are still complaining about having to pay more than $1500 for a bull like they used to 5 years ago...ugh!!!

So, to get back to the original question, are the days of the small registered breeder over? No, not over, but we will capture less dollars on average for our cattle than the big boys. One way to combat this is to get involved with a program that allows you to market your bulls with others. A good way to do this is become a cooperator for a larger, higher-profile seedstock operation. Or, join a cooperative of sorts (i.e. GeneTrust, Seedstock Plus, etc.) in which several producers develop and sell their bulls together.

Couldn't agree more..well said.

 

[max]

I agree with UG, well said. We were asked by a large producer to work as a Red Angus satellite herd and add the bulls we raise to one of their sales. They have buyers asking for 20 + bulls that meet certain criteria, and these buyers don't want to mess with shopping around. On our own, we'd never be able to capture that market.

Our biggest hurdle has been getting potential customers out to look at the animals we have for sale. 9 times out of 10, if they come look, they will buy and keep coming back because they're getting equal or better quality animals as the big operations from us, for less money. But getting them out to look at our 20-30 bulls is a struggle.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Unfortunately my perception is that the big are getting bigger and the small are becoming less relevant. This concerns me since I think of our operation as primarily a small, registered/seedstock operation.

In general, larger commercial producers (those who make their living raising cattle) recognize the value in good genetics (i.e. calving ease, heaving weaning weights, good carcass characteristics, etc.) and will pay premiums for bulls that are strong in these traits. In the past couple years it has been common at many bull sales across the country to see commercial producers paying $8000 or more for good bulls. However, these larger producers typically don't buy their bulls from smaller producers (like me). If they need 12 bulls, they aren't going to waste their time driving 2 hours to come to my place to look at 4 to 6 bulls. They want to go to a bull supplier or bull sale in which there is a large group to select from. Many of these larger commercial producers also want to select from large contemporary groups; they want to buy from the top 25% of 200 bulls not the top 25% of 5 to 20 bulls.

Consequently, small producers like me generally attract smaller, part-time cattle producers who don't rely on their cattle income as their primary income source. Unfortunately, a larger majority of part-time producers don't put as much value on cattle with good growth and/or carcass traits. Typically they are most concerned with birth weight/calving ease and don't want to give more than $3000 to $4000 for a bull, and some of them are still complaining about having to pay more than $1500 for a bull like they used to 5 years ago...ugh!!!

So, to get back to the original question, are the days of the small registered breeder over? No, not over, but we will capture less dollars on average for our cattle than the big boys. One way to combat this is to get involved with a program that allows you to market your bulls with others. A good way to do this is become a cooperator for a larger, higher-profile seedstock operation. Or, join a cooperative of sorts (i.e. GeneTrust, Seedstock Plus, etc.) in which several producers develop and sell their bulls together.

UG-

This is as well-thought-out an answer to the 'operative' subject here as could be presented! Well done! Your answer just exemplifies the facts at this time, and justifies even more the absolute necessity for small producers to improve the genetics of their COW seedstock - produce quality females (donor quality) in quantities that purchasers of one or perhaps three bulls can BALANCE the EPD's that they are seeking for their progeny. Large commercial producers who utilize forty or more bulls can easily slide by with less than perfect genetics and the differences in the feed yard can be obliterated by the number of feeders in a lot. But small differences in WW, YW, CW, Marb, and RE among twenty head will stand out like a fox in the henhouse!

A successful small breeder MUST focus on high, quality cows to sustain the quality of his progeny, Extremely good bulls are available from large bull-producing herds, and can be selected to balance the genetics of the cow herd. But the cows of that quality are whole 'nother thing! By being a producer of HIGH quality females (with fantastic udders!) will establish you as a winner! . . . and . . . an intelligent beef producer.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jake]

Small individualistic breeders will always have a place. If they can provide genetics or something that a big or a mainstream breeder cannot. I personally like getting into one breeders program and sticking with it trying to stay typically 3-5 years behind so that I have time to evaluate the effects of their breeding decisions before it impacts our herd.

I have little use for the vast majority of multiplier seedstock sources. Some of them have good cattle but I don't know how they can have any consistency to when they change AI sires like they change their underwear.