Apple cider vinegar

[Lucky_P]

3mile
Frontline is a complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands.
ACV is...acetic acid, a very small organic acid which is rapidly utilized in the routine metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. Not going to be excreted in sweat or sebaceous secretions. And, at the miniscule concentrations most of these folks are talking about using, it's gonna have minimal effect on pH of water, much less the pH of the animal's biological systems, which are buffered to a very narrow range around pH 7.4
Again, it isn't magical - likely won't hurt, but there's no substantiated proof that it will kill parasites or repel flies.

What you're smelling when you're sweating off the tequila, beer, etc., is not the alcohol, but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process - these 'fusel oils', and the dehydrating effect of alcohol by inhibiting secretion of anti-diuretic hormone by the pituitary are what cause most of the 'hangover' symptoms you feel when you imbibe to excess.

 

[3MileRanch]

3mile
Frontline is a complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands.
ACV is...acetic acid, a very small organic acid which is rapidly utilized in the routine metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. Not going to be excreted in sweat or sebaceous secretions. And, at the miniscule concentrations most of these folks are talking about using, it's gonna have minimal effect on pH of water, much less the pH of the animal's biological systems, which are buffered to a very narrow range around pH 7.4
Again, it isn't magical - likely won't hurt, but there's no substantiated proof that it will kill parasites or repel flies.

What you're smelling when you're sweating off the tequila, beer, etc., is not the alcohol, but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process - these 'fusel oils', and the dehydrating effect of alcohol by inhibiting secretion of anti-diuretic hormone by the pituitary are what cause most of the 'hangover' symptoms you feel when you imbibe to excess.

Ok Lucky, so what you are saying is that I was right? You can swallow something and then sweat it out. You wrote "but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process " That would mean stuff that was swallowed along with the tequila and then excreted through glands. Thanks for the agreement.

 

[greybeard]

3mile
Frontline is a complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands.
ACV is...acetic acid, a very small organic acid which is rapidly utilized in the routine metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. Not going to be excreted in sweat or sebaceous secretions. And, at the miniscule concentrations most of these folks are talking about using, it's gonna have minimal effect on pH of water, much less the pH of the animal's biological systems, which are buffered to a very narrow range around pH 7.4
Again, it isn't magical - likely won't hurt, but there's no substantiated proof that it will kill parasites or repel flies.

What you're smelling when you're sweating off the tequila, beer, etc., is not the alcohol, but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process - these 'fusel oils', and the dehydrating effect of alcohol by inhibiting secretion of anti-diuretic hormone by the pituitary are what cause most of the 'hangover' symptoms you feel when you imbibe to excess.

Ok Lucky, so what you are saying is that I was right? You can swallow something and then sweat it out. You wrote "but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process " That would mean stuff that was swallowed along with the tequila and then excreted through glands. Thanks for the agreement.

You got that from what Lucky_P wrote????????//
Must be something wrong with my computer.

On top of that, cattle have very few functional sweat glands. They rely on their respiratory system to get rid of excess body heat, so unless you are relying on their breath to transfer the acv to a place the flies and other parasites can sense it, you will have a hard time convincing anyone they exude acv thru their skin to any great degree at all. Not saying they don't sweat at all, but they sweat very very little. So little, that almost all of it evaporates the second it exits the hide. Humans sweat profusely--so do horses. Cattle do not.

 

[3MileRanch]

3mile
Frontline is a complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands.
ACV is...acetic acid, a very small organic acid which is rapidly utilized in the routine metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. Not going to be excreted in sweat or sebaceous secretions. And, at the miniscule concentrations most of these folks are talking about using, it's gonna have minimal effect on pH of water, much less the pH of the animal's biological systems, which are buffered to a very narrow range around pH 7.4
Again, it isn't magical - likely won't hurt, but there's no substantiated proof that it will kill parasites or repel flies.

What you're smelling when you're sweating off the tequila, beer, etc., is not the alcohol, but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process - these 'fusel oils', and the dehydrating effect of alcohol by inhibiting secretion of anti-diuretic hormone by the pituitary are what cause most of the 'hangover' symptoms you feel when you imbibe to excess.

Ok Lucky, so what you are saying is that I was right? You can swallow something and then sweat it out. You wrote "but other hydrocarbons, phenols, etc.that remain through the fermentation/distillation process " That would mean stuff that was swallowed along with the tequila and then excreted through glands. Thanks for the agreement.

You got that from what Lucky_P wrote????????//
Must be something wrong with my computer.

On top of that, cattle have very few functional sweat glands. They rely on their respiratory system to get rid of excess body heat, so unless you are relying on their breath to transfer the acv to a place the flies and other parasites can sense it, you will have a hard time convincing anyone they exude acv thru their skin to any great degree at all. Not saying they don't sweat at all, but they sweat very very little. So little, that almost all of it evaporates the second it exits the hide. Humans sweat profusely--so do horses. Cattle do not.

Yes, I got that from what lucky wrote. Not only that I quoted what he wrote. What part doesnt make sense? PS: You have to stop thining about the vinigar. All I was replying to was when he said that you cant swallow something and expect it to excrete through your skin which is incorrect. He even stated you could when he rebutted my tequila example by saying what was being exreted was byproducts of the tequilla distilling process. Any way you slice it or whatebver you want to call it, it came in the tequilla bottle, went down my throat and exited my sweat glands, lol.

I thought it was funny that he said front line works because it is a "complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands." So are the tequilla leftovers complex leftovers designed the same way????

Yes, cows may not sweat that much, but neither do dogs and they have oral medications that stop biting pest for dogs that work the same way by metabolizing through the blood. Whether an animal sweats gallons or drops, it is still a part of metabilization. Saying something that is taken orally cant be extreted through the blood or body is very incorrect. Again, dont know if vinigar works or not, dont care either. I just know how a body metabolizes and sweat glands are part of it.

 

[Lucky_P]

3mile,
You're stretching. In a big way.
Yes, some things you swallow - or metabolites thereof - may be excreted through sweat/sebaceous gland secretions, or in your urine, etc.; but not just anything/everything. Ever eat any asparagus? Mercaptans carry through nicely...
I'm not a biochemist or a physiologist, per se, but as a classically-trained microbiologist, veterinarian, and pathologist, I do know a bit about chemistry, physiology, and the like.

Some research scientist somewhere,figured out that you could apply fipronil to a dog's skin and that it would be concentrated in the secretions of the sebaceous glands, enough to repel/kill fleas/ticks - but it probably goes other places as well. No drug company has tried, to my knowledge, to get it approved for cattle - might not be considered safe for use in food animals(most of us in the USA don't knowingly eat dogs or cats), or the slaughter withdrawal might be too long to be useful.
Back in my microbiology training, I was well aware of the 'fusel oils'(means 'bad liquor' in German) and other products/co-products of alcoholic fermentation - and aromatic hydrocarbons, phenols, etc. may remain, depending upon the feedstock you're using (grain, potatoes, fruit, molasses, etc.) to produce ethanol.

But since this thread is/was about vinegar - acetic acid is a little 2-carbon organic acid produced by oxidation of ethanol - and my point was that acetic acid is NOT going to be excreted in sweat - it's gonna be utilized in the metabolism of other carbohydrates and fats by way of the TCA cycle - and will not, especially at the dilutions the ACV proponents are pushing - really do anything measurable, much less the magical things they claim. Won't hurt anything, but it's a potentially expensive and unproductive tilt at a windmill.

 

[3MileRanch]

3mile,
You're stretching. In a big way.
Yes, some things you swallow - or metabolites thereof - may be excreted through sweat/sebaceous gland secretions, or in your urine, etc.; but not just anything/everything. Ever eat any asparagus? Mercaptans carry through nicely...
I'm not a biochemist or a physiologist, per se, but as a classically-trained microbiologist, veterinarian, and pathologist, I do know a bit about chemistry, physiology, and the like.

Some research scientist somewhere,figured out that you could apply fipronil to a dog's skin and that it would be concentrated in the secretions of the sebaceous glands, enough to repel/kill fleas/ticks - but it probably goes other places as well. No drug company has tried, to my knowledge, to get it approved for cattle - might not be considered safe for use in food animals(most of us in the USA don't knowingly eat dogs or cats), or the slaughter withdrawal might be too long to be useful.
Back in my microbiology training, I was well aware of the 'fusel oils'(means 'bad liquor' in German) and other products/co-products of alcoholic fermentation - and aromatic hydrocarbons, phenols, etc. may remain, depending upon the feedstock you're using (grain, potatoes, fruit, molasses, etc.) to produce ethanol.

But since this thread is/was about vinegar - acetic acid is a little 2-carbon organic acid produced by oxidation of ethanol - and my point was that acetic acid is NOT going to be excreted in sweat - it's gonna be utilized in the metabolism of other carbohydrates and fats by way of the TCA cycle - and will not, especially at the dilutions the ACV proponents are pushing - really do anything measurable, much less the magical things they claim. Won't hurt anything, but it's a potentially expensive and unproductive tilt at a windmill.

Its all good lucky, your reading way to much into my post. I was just commenting on a generality, something I do alot. :tiphat:

 

[greybeard]

Yes, I got that from what lucky wrote. Not only that I quoted what he wrote. What part doesnt make sense? PS: You have to stop thining about the vinigar. All I was replying to was when he said that you cant swallow something and expect it to excrete through your skin which is incorrect. He even stated you could when he rebutted my tequila example by saying what was being exreted was byproducts of the tequilla distilling process. Any way you slice it or whatebver you want to call it, it came in the tequilla bottle, went down my throat and exited my sweat glands, lol.

I thought it was funny that he said front line works because it is a "complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands." So are the tequilla leftovers complex leftovers designed the same way????

Yes, cows may not sweat that much, but neither do dogs and they have oral medications that stop biting pest for dogs that work the same way by metabolizing through the blood. Whether an animal sweats gallons or drops, it is still a part of metabilization. Saying something that is taken orally cant be extreted through the blood or body is very incorrect. Again, dont know if vinigar works or not, dont care either. I just know how a body metabolizes and sweat glands are part of it.

Chemicals like pour on dewormers and other parasite controls are also designed to be absorbed thru a cow's skin, but that doesn't mean it's a two way street. And no, I don't have to stop thinking acv--that's what the thread is about. It's you that tried to make the connection between tequila by products in humans and cows re acv, which is kinda like saying the sky is blue but the forest is green.
Just because a compound does one thing in a certain species doesn't mean a different compound will do the same thing in a different species.

 

[3MileRanch]

Yes, I got that from what lucky wrote. Not only that I quoted what he wrote. What part doesnt make sense? PS: You have to stop thining about the vinigar. All I was replying to was when he said that you cant swallow something and expect it to excrete through your skin which is incorrect. He even stated you could when he rebutted my tequila example by saying what was being exreted was byproducts of the tequilla distilling process. Any way you slice it or whatebver you want to call it, it came in the tequilla bottle, went down my throat and exited my sweat glands, lol.

I thought it was funny that he said front line works because it is a "complex insecticide coupled with an insect growth regulator; designed to be absorbed through the skin, concentrated & stored in sweat/sebaceous glands, and continually presented on the skin surface by these glands." So are the tequilla leftovers complex leftovers designed the same way????

Yes, cows may not sweat that much, but neither do dogs and they have oral medications that stop biting pest for dogs that work the same way by metabolizing through the blood. Whether an animal sweats gallons or drops, it is still a part of metabilization. Saying something that is taken orally cant be extreted through the blood or body is very incorrect. Again, dont know if vinigar works or not, dont care either. I just know how a body metabolizes and sweat glands are part of it.

Chemicals like pour on dewormers and other parasite controls are also designed to be absorbed thru a cow's skin, but that doesn't mean it's a two way street. And no, I don't have to stop thinking acv--that's what the thread is about. It's you that tried to make the connection between tequila by products in humans and cows re acv, which is kinda like saying the sky is blue but the forest is green.
Just because a compound does one thing in a certain species doesn't mean a different compound will do the same thing in a different species.

Ok Greybeard, you win. Now go smoke your cigars have some coffee and a great day. You can even write back and I will let you have the last word. :deadhorse:

 

[ohiobeef]

Somebody posted a while back that apple cider vinegar would make their cows have more hefer calves than bulls. Some people can be sold anything.
Blue Goose 1

I believe that must be true ! I don't use apple cider on my cows & had 4 bull & heifer this spring......... :tiphat:

 

[Nite Hawk]

Wow! Quite the heated discussion on AVC.
I must have weird cattle, they do sweat if they have been running around kicking up their heels.
They are also capable of twitching their hides like a horse to dislodge bugs, which I have been told cattle can't do...
Anyways, I have read studies that AVC is helpful in preventing cases of milk fever, as it is supposed to wake up the thyroid gland, and also because vinegar is supposed to be antagonistic towards calcium, it is supposed to mobilize the calcium out of the bones.
Sorry, don't have the study references at my finger tips about the milk fever
Also the local vet swears it helps the kidneys when a cow has been down for quite a while.
Also, concerning tobacco, my father told me that when he was little they used to grow tobacco and boil the leaves and spray the juice on their garden plants cause it killed the bugs eating their garden up.
They also used to do the same thing and drench their horses, claimed it blew the worms out, amazing it didn't kill the horses, guess it was the dose they used or the horse probably would have keeled over.
I know people that when their dogs got old and infirm would boil up cigerettes and inject the dogs to put them to sleep, so tobacco can kill, so wouldn't doubt it can get rid of worms too. Might be tricky getting the right dose though to get rid of the worms without ending up burying the animal...

 

[chippie]

my father told me that when he was little they used to grow tobacco and boil the leaves and spray the juice on their garden plants cause it killed the bugs eating their garden up.

The nicotine is what kills the bugs. I don't know if you still can buy it, but 30 odds years ago, you could buy nicotine concentrate in the garden section to spray on your plants. It is approved for organic gardens.

 

[Lucky_P]

nitehawk,
Yes,tobacco, tobacco extracts, etc. were used as insecticides and vermifuges in the past - the active ingredient, nicotine sulfate, is toxic to many living animal species - but the dose is the critical thing; in some applications there was a fine line between effectiveness and causing death (or just providing a pleasurable experience). It was the best they had, back in the day - but in the 60 years of so since the introduction of piperazine, we've gained newer, safer, and more effective anthelminthics.

I'd be interested in seeing these 'studies' on ACV you mention - or are they just more anecdotal claims from the magical ACV crowd?
Just like the dosage/dilution thing with nicotine SO4, the minscule amount of ACV folks are ascribing miraculous properties to is just not enough to really have any significant effect on biologic systems in the animal.

 

[TexasBred]

nitehawk,
Yes,tobacco, tobacco extracts, etc. were used as insecticides and vermifuges in the past - the active ingredient, nicotine sulfate, is toxic to many living animal species - but the dose is the critical thing; in some applications there was a fine line between effectiveness and causing death (or just providing a pleasurable experience). It was the best they had, back in the day - but in the 60 years of so since the introduction of piperazine, we've gained newer, safer, and more effective anthelminthics.

I'd be interested in seeing these 'studies' on ACV you mention - or are they just more anecdotal claims from the magical ACV crowd?
Just like the dosage/dilution thing with nicotine SO4, the minscule amount of ACV folks are ascribing miraculous properties to is just not enough to really have any significant effect on biologic systems in the animal.

Lucky be careful with that stuff. An overdose could cause such a huge increase in milk production that all your calves will have constant scours. ;-)