another CAB question for Frankie

[VanC]

Hi. Im brand new and this is my first post, so hope Im doing this right. Not real computer savvy yet, but am quick learner. I will formally introduce myself in a day or so. Have a serious question for Frankie or anyone else for that matter. Here goes.
Its my understanding that a red calf can qualify for CAB if it can be verified that one of the parents is black. Sorry, I actually have 2 questions.
1. How is this verified?

2. Lets say someone runs 100 red cows with 3 black bulls and those bulls all carry the red factor. Would the red calves qualify for CAB since we dont know which bull sired them?

I have to leave soon, so may not be able to answer any questions directed at me till tomorrow evening. Thanks.

 

[bulldealer]

They have to be black hided to qualify CAB, am I right Frankie.

 

[Nowland Farms]

Bulldealer,

You are right, To qualify for CAB the beef has to come from black hair, be 3.5 yield grade or higher and rated in top 2/3rds Choice or better.

Red hair falls under CHB (Certified Hereford Beef) program. To qualify for CAB the beef has to come from red hair, be 3.5 yield grade or higher and rated in top 2/3rds Choice or better.

 

[Frankie]

Hi. Im brand new and this is my first post, so hope Im doing this right. Not real computer savvy yet, but am quick learner. I will formally introduce myself in a day or so. Have a serious question for Frankie or anyone else for that matter. Here goes.
Its my understanding that a red calf can qualify for CAB if it can be verified that one of the parents is black. Sorry, I actually have 2 questions.
1. How is this verified?

No. They can qualify two ways: Genotype or Phenotype. Most qualify under Phenotype. But under Genotype, the animal can be CAB if they can be traced to a registered Angus, being "black" isn't enough. The USDA specs say:
"Cattle eligible for Angus influence beef programs based on genotype must have positive identification (ear tags, tattoos, brands, etc.) and be traceable back to provable (e.g.; registration papers) Angus parentage. Qualifying cattle must be traceable to one registered parent or two registered grandparents."
Here's the link http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/Sc ... ed-GLA.htm

2. Lets say someone runs 100 red cows with 3 black bulls and those bulls all carry the red factor. Would the red calves qualify for CAB since we dont know which bull sired them?

Being sired by a "black" bull doesn't make them acceptable. They must be traceable to registered Angus. Sorry. I don't know how you would go about proving that or who you would need to prove it to. My guess is that you'd have to own them through the feedlot and make arrangements with a CAB packer to get them processed on a CAB line. But that's a guess. You can contact your Angus regional manager and talk to him. You can find his email address here: http://www.angusproductions.com/api_regional.html

I have to leave soon, so may not be able to answer any questions directed at me till tomorrow evening. Thanks.

Welcome to the boards. Don't apologize for being away; most of us have another life and come and go. Don't hesitate to ask more questions on this board; just ignore the rude comments some people will throw at you. Remember, it's just the internet.

 

[VanC]

Thanks everyone. I guess I misunderstood, but then thats not too unusual. Talk to you later.

 

[Aero]

Bulldealer,

You are right, To qualify for CAB the beef has to come from black hair, be 3.5 yield grade or higher and rated in top 2/3rds Choice or better.

Red hair falls under CHB (Certified Hereford Beef) program. To qualify for CAB the beef has to come from red hair, be 3.5 yield grade or higher and rated in top 2/3rds Choice or better.

the last time i read it, the YG criterion said it could not be higher than Yield Grade 3.9. so, no 4's or above.

 

[okiecowpoke]

You guys are partially correct. CHB is a phenotypic (visual)spec that allows cattle with 51% white face regardless of coat color. CAB is phenotypic as well with 51% black hide. Both have some other criteria as well that has already been discussed. CHB is a Select product while CAB is a upper 2/3 Choice product.
While red cattle are not allowed into CAB, there are other "Angus" product lines that documented Red Angus cattle will fit such as Cargil's (Excel) Sterling Silver and Angus Pride as well as Meyer's program.
USDA ruled that any cattle that fit the Red Angus Association's tagging program are eligible for "Angus" product lines, even if they specify Black Angus. Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.
The Red Angus tag guarantees 50% Red Angus genetics. It has been around longer (10+ years) than any of the other programs. This program has more teeth than a phenotypic spec since a white faced black Simmental would qualify for both CAB and CHB but is neither Hereford or Angus.

 

[Aero]

Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.

with that statement, you could also say that purple dinosaurs are eligible, it would just be up to the program if they let them in.

 

[Aero]

You guys are partially correct. CHB is a phenotypic (visual)spec that allows cattle with 51% white face regardless of coat color. CAB is phenotypic as well with 51% black hide. Both have some other criteria as well that has already been discussed. CHB is a Select product while CAB is a upper 2/3 Choice product.
While red cattle are not allowed into CAB, there are other "Angus" product lines that documented Red Angus cattle will fit such as Cargil's (Excel) Sterling Silver and Angus Pride as well as Meyer's program.
USDA ruled that any cattle that fit the Red Angus Association's tagging program are eligible for "Angus" product lines, even if they specify Black Angus. Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.
The Red Angus tag guarantees 50% Red Angus genetics. It has been around longer (10+ years) than any of the other programs. This program has more teeth than a phenotypic spec since a white faced black Simmental would qualify for both CAB and CHB but is neither Hereford or Angus.

i am sure you intended to clarify something, but i cant figure out what it is.

 

[Frankie]

USDA ruled that any cattle that fit the Red Angus Association's tagging program are eligible for "Angus" product lines, even if they specify Black Angus. Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.

CAB is an "Angus" product line. No matter what ear tag they're wearing, the only way red cattle can get into the CAB program is if they can be traced back to a registered Angus. Here's the email I got from the Red Angus Assn: (my bold for emphasis)

"Frankie, No sir, the Red Angus ear tag does not allow cattle to supply CAB specifically, however, the ear tag does allow the cattle to be eligible for other "Angus" product lines. USDA has said that there are two ways to identify "Angus" carcasses in the packing house...1) Genotypic - Red Angus ear tag and 2) Phenotypic - 51% black hide. Any product line that uses the name "Angus" must use one or both of these two methods to supply their product label, and several product labels are currently using both the black hide and the Red Angus ear tag to supply their product - one primary one being Angus Pride through Cargill Meat Solutions. Thanks for your question and if I can be of any additional assistance, please let me know. Blake
Blake W. Angell
Commercial Marketing Director
Red Angus Marketing Programs
3056 Tamarak Dr.
Manhattan, KS 66503
Office: 785-537-3156
Mobile: 785-410-3750
Fax: 785-537-3815
[email protected]
http://www.redangus.org "

 

[lakading]

Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.

with that statement, you could also say that purple dinosaurs are eligible, it would just be up to the program if they let them in.

I've heard a story of a grader allowing a straight Char to go CAB. Must have had all but the black hide and the plant must have needed to make quota.

Maybe I should check snopes and make sure that isn't an urban legend. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just a story I heard 2nd or 3rd hand.

 

[MikeC]

From the Red Angus website:

December 8, 2003 Red Angus Association of America

Industry's Premiere "Angus" Grid Unveiled

Sharing the same objective of supplying premium "Angus" cattle to the beef industry, the Red Angus Association of America (RAAA) and Angus America have combined efforts to provide the industry's premiere fed cattle marketing outlet for "Angus" cattle.

"This merger signifies yet another huge milestone in the history of the 'Certified Red Angus' program," says Blake Angell, RAAA Commercial Marketing Director. "Being aligned with a program with the caliber and reputation of Angus America will only aid in further advancing the notoriety and recognition of the value of our program and the Red Angus breed."

In an attempt to deliver a program unmatched in its assistance in developing, producing, and promoting high quality Angus cattle, regardless of hide color, these two programs have redefined the standards for marketing "Angus" fed cattle. By incorporating strict cattle qualifications, producers must now meet the USDA qualifications for "Angus" in order to utilize the new "Angus America/Red Angus Marketing Agreement." Thus, this newly developed system will be a key component for Excel Corporation to supply the branded beef product lines of Angus Pride, Sterling Silver and Certified Angus Beef.

"Angus America is excited about the recent consolidation between marketing efforts of the Red Angus Association and Angus America into the premier Angus alliance in the country," says Mark Nelson, Angus America Business Coordinator. "This consolidation both simplifies and adds punch to grid marketing, carcass data, and access to premium product lines through agreements with Excel Corporation, the most progressive processor in the industry."

From the Angus America website:

Angus America Guidelines

Cattle Qualifications:

1) Each Lot must comply with USDA's Schedule GLA Live Requirements.

Cattle are eligible by meeting either the Genotype or Phenotype requirement or a combination of both.

Genotype-Red Angus Feeder Calf Tag or Phenotype-51% Black Hided

2) No Dairy, No Brahman, No Extreme Exotic Crosses.

3) An Excel Cattle Buyer will approve all cattle prior to slaughter

Looks like someone can't get their stories straight. This is why I and some others question the integrity of CAB. If it's based on quality grade fine. But to lead people into thinking that the beef comes from Angus cattle only is a misnomer. Marketing ingenuity and "Word Twisting" at it's finest.

From the USDA website:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/mgc/instruc ... MGC911.htm


United States Department of Agriculture
Marketing and Regulatory Programs
Agricultural Marketing Service
Livestock and Seed Program

Meat Grading & Certification Branch

Instruction 911

January 17, 2003
Page 1 of 2


CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF "A" STAMP ASSIGNMENTS


Purpose

This instruction lists the Certified Angus Beef stamp assignments by applicant and number. An "R" preceding the stamp number identifies Red Angus stamps.

 

[Frankie]

MikeC said:

Looks like someone can't get their stories straight. This is why I and some others question the integrity of CAB. If it's based on quality grade fine. But to lead people into thinking that the beef comes from Angus cattle only is a misnomer. Marketing ingenuity and "Word Twisting" at it's finest.

From the USDA website:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/mgc/instruc ... MGC911.htm
United States Department of Agriculture
Marketing and Regulatory Programs
Agricultural Marketing Service
Livestock and Seed Program

Meat Grading & Certification Branch

Instruction 911

January 17, 2003
Page 1 of 2

CERTIFIED ANGUS BEEF "A" STAMP ASSIGNMENTS

Purpose

This instruction lists the Certified Angus Beef stamp assignments by applicant and number. An "R" preceding the stamp number identifies Red Angus stamps.

Red Angus can be CAB if they're black. If you breed a Red Angus bull to homozygous black cows, you'll get some black calves that can wear the Red Angus ear tag. Those calves can be CAB. That's no mystery, no secret. In talking to Limi bull buyers here in OK, they'll pay more for a homo black Limi bull than just a "black" Limi bull. In looking at the sire summaries, more and more Simmental bulls are being promoted as homo black. Beefmasters have black bulls, there's a Black Hereford Assn, Gelbvieh promotes black cattle. All of them can be CAB if they meet the USDA-approved specifications.

But I am glad to see you back, MikeC. Keep on keepin' on. We sold half a billion pounds of CAB last year. That's a lot of happy beef consumers, not to mention producers pocketing the CAB premium.

 

[Frankie]

Red cattle are eligible for any program, it's just up to the program if they let them in or not.

with that statement, you could also say that purple dinosaurs are eligible, it would just be up to the program if they let them in.

I've heard a story of a grader allowing a straight Char to go CAB. Must have had all but the black hide and the plant must have needed to make quota.

Maybe I should check snopes and make sure that isn't an urban legend. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just a story I heard 2nd or 3rd hand.

You probably heard that story from MikeC. ;-)

The last I heard, there were forty products on supermarket shelves around the country with the word "Angus" in their name. In my local supermarket they sell "Preferred Angus Beef". That's not a USDA certified name, just the name they put on the product. I think many people don't know the difference in CAB and other brands using "Angus", like the "Angus Pride" brand Blake Angell references in his email from the Red Angus Assn. Below is a link to the USDA site with info on certified branded beef requirements. Look at how many use the name "Angus".

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/certbeef.htm

 

[MikeC]

RED ANGUS -
COMMERCIAL MARKETING
OPPORTUNITIES

The Red Angus Association's Commercial Marketing Program provides Red Angus bull buyers with multiple marketing options for their Red Angus influenced cattle. These services are broad in scope and flexible enough to benefit most operations, regardless of when or how cattle are marketed.

FEEDER CALF CERTIFICATION PROGRAM
The foundation of the entire marketing program is the Red Angus Feeder Calf Certification Program (FCCP). The FCCP verifies a calf's link to the "Angus" gene pool, identifying them as "Angus" regardless of hide color.

To be eligible, calves must be the offspring of a Registered Red Angus male or female. The FCCP tag officially documents this known Angus parentage. All FCCP tags have a serial tracking number on the back, allowing them to be traced throughout the marketing system. Calves can be tagged at any time from birth until loading on the truck to go to the packing plant.

The intentions of the Certification Program are to offer marketing alternatives for Red Angus sponsored feeder cattle services, and/or packing plant programs. Ultimately, Certified cattle are eligible for approved "Angus" branded beef product lines under USDA's Schedule GLA for live animal specifications.

 

[Frankie]

RED ANGUS -
COMMERCIAL MARKETING
OPPORTUNITIES

The Red Angus Association's Commercial Marketing Program provides Red Angus bull buyers with multiple marketing options for their Red Angus influenced cattle. These services are broad in scope and flexible enough to benefit most operations, regardless of when or how cattle are marketed.

FEEDER CALF CERTIFICATION PROGRAM
The foundation of the entire marketing program is the Red Angus Feeder Calf Certification Program (FCCP). The FCCP verifies a calf's link to the "Angus" gene pool, identifying them as "Angus" regardless of hide color.

To be eligible, calves must be the offspring of a Registered Red Angus male or female. The FCCP tag officially documents this known Angus parentage. All FCCP tags have a serial tracking number on the back, allowing them to be traced throughout the marketing system. Calves can be tagged at any time from birth until loading on the truck to go to the packing plant.

The intentions of the Certification Program are to offer marketing alternatives for Red Angus sponsored feeder cattle services, and/or packing plant programs. Ultimately, Certified cattle are eligible for approved "Angus" branded beef product lines under USDA's Schedule GLA for live animal specifications.

I think it's a great program. The American Angus Assn has started a similar program, the AngusSource ear tag. It works much the same as the Red Angus program. Either black or red calves with the AngusSource tag can be CAB because they can be traced back to a registered Angus. Black calves with the Red Angus tag can be CAB because they're black, not because they have the RA ear tag.

But your post doesn't have anything to do with the requirements or meeting the specifications for CAB. Those requirements are the same as they were when you started claiming the Red Angus eartag qualified animals for CAB. They didn't then; they don't today. Read the email from Blake Angell,Commercial Marketing Director of the Red Angs Assn, to me. He said "...the Red Angus ear tag does not allow cattle to supply CAB..."

 

[MikeC]

FCCP was introduced as the first USDA approved and audited, genotypic and source verified feeder calf program in the beef industry.

The Red Angus FCCP allows for the certification of cattle into the program at any stage during the production cycle, as long as either the sire or dam is a registered Red Angus animal. This USDA Process Verified program allows certified Red Angus influenced cattle to supply approved "ANGUS" branded beef product lines. Until this point, all "ANGUS" branded beef product lines were using only the phenotypic portion of the USDA schedule GLA specification of 51% black hided as a means of obtaining their product. Upon introduction of the FCCP, approved "ANGUS" branded beef product lines are able to obtain and utilize a product that is genetically sourced to "Angus".
*************************************
Frankie, a calf that is 1/2 Red Angus and has the FCCP Red Angus tag qualifies it for CAB should it meet the quality grade specs, no matter what color. It is a fact.

 

[Frankie]

FCCP was introduced as the first USDA approved and audited, genotypic and source verified feeder calf program in the beef industry.

The Red Angus FCCP allows for the certification of cattle into the program at any stage during the production cycle, as long as either the sire or dam is a registered Red Angus animal. This USDA Process Verified program allows certified Red Angus influenced cattle to supply approved "ANGUS" branded beef product lines. Until this point, all "ANGUS" branded beef product lines were using only the phenotypic portion of the USDA schedule GLA specification of 51% black hided as a means of obtaining their product. Upon introduction of the FCCP, approved "ANGUS" branded beef product lines are able to obtain and utilize a product that is genetically sourced to "Angus".

"RED" calves can qualify for CAB should they meet quality grades and if they have the FCCP tags also. Agreed?

I don't know what you mean when you put RED in quotes. Animals red in color with, or without, Red Angus FCCP tag in their ear do not qualify for the CAB program. Blake Angell, Commercial Marketing Director of the Red Angs Assn, said that tag did not qualify them for CAB. If they're black and have the FCCP tag in their ear and meet the CAB specs, yes they can be sold as CAB. As the link to the branded beef web page that I posted shows, there are many, many "Angus" branded beef lines. But there's only one CAB.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie:

I don't know what you mean when you put RED in quotes. Animals red in color with, or without, Red Angus FCCP tag in their ear do not qualify for the CAB program.

You are wrong my dear. 8)

Blake Angell, Commercial Marketing Director of the Red Angs Assn, said that tag did not qualify them for CAB.

Blake wrote the articles I cut and pasted from the Red Angus website. It's a coverup Frankie. Can't you see it? The whole world thinks CAB means black angus. Calves being CAB other than black would blow their cover.

Fact: 1/2 Red Angus calves with the FCCP tag may qualify for CAB should they meet quality grade. Plain and simple.

 

[Frankie]

You need a "cool" emoticon because you're blowing hot air. Talk's cheap, Mike. Let's see something that tells me that I'm wrong. Mr. Angell, Commercial Marketing Director of the Red Angs Assn, says just wearing that RA ear tag doesn't qualify calves for CAB. Is he wrong, too? The USDA specs on the CAB say the animal has to be black or tracable (with papers) back to registered Angus. If they don't fit that criteria, they can't be CAB. Do packers cheat? Maybe. Do they make mistakes? Probably. But overall, I think they follow the requirements set out by AAA and approved by the USDA.

FACT: Half Red Angus calves can be CAB, ear tag or not, if they're black.

But keep trying; I was afraid you had given up.