another CAB question for Frankie
- Thread starter VanC
- Start date
VanC
Well-known member
Well I started this mess and now I'm thoroughly confused. :help: :) The website I found with the CAB live animal requirements isn't much help.
Under phenotype, it gives the 51% black hide requirement,etc. But under genotype, it simply states that the animal "must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage." Nothing about color. I read this to mean that ANY color animal could qualify IF one of the parents was a registered Angus. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what am I missing here? I understand what is being said about the hide needing to be 51% black, but can you all see why I find this so confusing?
As for CHB, I don't find their requirements any less confusing. Under phenotype, it says the cattle " must exhibit some or all of the traditional markings of a Hereford or Hereford/English crossbred," etc. Doesn't say it HAS to be 100% British, just needs to look like it.Then, under genotype, its says the cattle must be proven to be "at least 1/2 Hereford breeding and 100% British bred". Again, I don't get it. Am I dense, or does this confuse anybody else out there?
Either way, I'm having a heckuva good time with this. :D :D
Under phenotype, it gives the 51% black hide requirement,etc. But under genotype, it simply states that the animal "must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage." Nothing about color. I read this to mean that ANY color animal could qualify IF one of the parents was a registered Angus. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what am I missing here? I understand what is being said about the hide needing to be 51% black, but can you all see why I find this so confusing?
As for CHB, I don't find their requirements any less confusing. Under phenotype, it says the cattle " must exhibit some or all of the traditional markings of a Hereford or Hereford/English crossbred," etc. Doesn't say it HAS to be 100% British, just needs to look like it.Then, under genotype, its says the cattle must be proven to be "at least 1/2 Hereford breeding and 100% British bred". Again, I don't get it. Am I dense, or does this confuse anybody else out there?
Either way, I'm having a heckuva good time with this. :D :D
Van:
That's correct, and now the parentage can be Red Angus because it also can be traced back to Angus parentage. Not too hard to understand.
Throws the mandatory black requirement out.
Personally I don't think it makes a hoot-n-hell what color the hair is if it meets the quality grade specs.
Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.
That's correct, and now the parentage can be Red Angus because it also can be traced back to Angus parentage. Not too hard to understand.
Throws the mandatory black requirement out.
Personally I don't think it makes a hoot-n-hell what color the hair is if it meets the quality grade specs.
Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.
la4angus":3riy1cry said:
Actually LA - I am with you only I am of a stronger opinion.
If it is to be sold as certified Angus or Herf beef - I believe there should ONLY be Angus or Herf in the animal. You and I both know there is lots of quality there without the cross breeding.
I know that leaves me open to a lot of disagreement - cross breeds and so on - so I will go as far as to agree with you on the MINIMUM 50% - and no substitutions.
It would certainly keep more than a few pretenders from diluting the pool.
But it would also tick a whole bunch of folks off. :lol:
Bez!
Bez, you and I and many others know that you are right. With CAB and CHB being strictly English breeds and having the quality grade of upper 2/3 Choice or better I believe the value of Angus and Herefords would go up 35%. I believe there is enough demand for high quality beef to support that kind of price.Bez!":2xas8gh4 said:
lakading
Well-known member
MikeC":z4rtz5cl said:
For one thing, they could stop letting any joker off the street feed them.
VanC
Well-known member
MikeC":2vzh4ocx said:
I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that if CAB required at least half Angus breeding, the percentage that qualify would go up.
MikeC":3gzjsn7c said:
Red Angus are Red Angus, not Angus. There's a difference. Nothing "throws the mandatory black requirement out"? There are two ways to qualify, phenotype and genotype. Neither one of them allow a red, Red Angus, ear tag or not, into the program.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/Sc ... ed-GLA.htm
"2.1 Genotype. Cattle eligible for Angus influence beef programs based on genotype must have positive identification (ear tags, tattoos, brands, etc.) and be traceable back to provable (e.g.; registration papers) Angus parentage. Qualifying cattle must be traceable to one registered parent or two registered grandparents. Programs which claim a specified percentage of Angus heritage must use this method.
2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs."
Then why are you trying so hard to prove that Red Angus can be part of the progam. They can, BTW, if they're black, ear tag or not.
Kent":jppzgg03 said:
Nothing in the CHB phenotype requirements says the animal can't be half Continental. Breed a Hereford bull to a black or red Limi or Simmental cow and you've got CHB, if the carcass quality is there.
The intent of CAB is to get Angus sired cattle, too, but many breeds have turned black and today we often don't know which calves are sired by Angus or a black Breed X bull. IMO, that's why we can't get the % meeting the specifications up.
VanC":g0d8d9ym said:
It's an either/or situation. An animal may qualify under the phenotype, black, minimal hump, no dairy influence, etc. Or they can qualify under the genotype rules: traceable to registered Angus.
Same with CHB, an either or situation. It is a lot of fun. :)
When the CAB program started out, there was only a small packer producing product. As it grew, they had to license larger packers and the larger packers weren't convinced that it was worth their while to mess with the program. AAA actually sent people to packing plants to train them. If the requirement had been to identify half blood Angus cattle, there would have been no way they would have accepted it.Today packers make a lot of money off CAB and are happy to work with other organizations to produce other branded beef. As we get the animal ID in place, I think they'll change the program to only accept Angus cattle.
VanC
Well-known member
Frankie":30huiea3 said:
Frankie: I know you must be getting sick of explaining all this, but here's where I'm still confused:
If its either/or, then the animal could qualify under only the genotype rules, but not the phenotype rules. The genotype rules don't mention anything about coat color. If you mate two registered Angus, and they both carry the red factor, the calf could be red. Why wouldn't that calf qualify, since it can be traced to Angus parents?
VanC":9m0h6bbn said:
Qualification is either by phenotype or genotype, not necessarily both. Yes, the red calf should qualify if you can show his parents were registered Angus. From a practical standpoint, I don't know how or who you need to prove that to. That's where you should get in touch with your regional manager. Here's the link to his email again: http://www.angusproductions.com/api_regional.html
If I know the answer, I don't mind answering questions.
