another CAB question for Frankie

[Aero]

http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4237#4237

Angus Source info with CAB

 

[VanC]

Well I started this mess and now I'm thoroughly confused. :help: The website I found with the CAB live animal requirements isn't much help.
Under phenotype, it gives the 51% black hide requirement,etc. But under genotype, it simply states that the animal "must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage." Nothing about color. I read this to mean that ANY color animal could qualify IF one of the parents was a registered Angus. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what am I missing here? I understand what is being said about the hide needing to be 51% black, but can you all see why I find this so confusing?
As for CHB, I don't find their requirements any less confusing. Under phenotype, it says the cattle " must exhibit some or all of the traditional markings of a Hereford or Hereford/English crossbred," etc. Doesn't say it HAS to be 100% British, just needs to look like it.Then, under genotype, its says the cattle must be proven to be "at least 1/2 Hereford breeding and 100% British bred". Again, I don't get it. Am I dense, or does this confuse anybody else out there?
Either way, I'm having a heckuva good time with this.

 

[MikeC]

Van:

"must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage."

That's correct, and now the parentage can be Red Angus because it also can be traced back to Angus parentage. Not too hard to understand.

Throws the mandatory black requirement out.

Personally I don't think it makes a hoot-n-hell what color the hair is if it meets the quality grade specs.

Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.

 

[la4angus]

Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.

IMO if it's gonna be called Certified Angus Beef it should be Angus beef or at the least be 1/2 Angus.

 

[MikeC]

Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.

IMO if it's gonna be called Certified Angus Beef it should be Angus beef or at the least be 1/2 Angus.

Agreed. And 1/2 red angus X 1/2 charolais can qualify. Or half longhorn, or half jersey and so on.........

 

[Bez!]

Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.

IMO if it's gonna be called Certified Angus Beef it should be Angus beef or at the least be 1/2 Angus.

Actually LA - I am with you only I am of a stronger opinion.

If it is to be sold as certified Angus or Herf beef - I believe there should ONLY be Angus or Herf in the animal. You and I both know there is lots of quality there without the cross breeding.

I know that leaves me open to a lot of disagreement - cross breeds and so on - so I will go as far as to agree with you on the MINIMUM 50% - and no substitutions.

It would certainly keep more than a few pretenders from diluting the pool.

But it would also tick a whole bunch of folks off. :lol:

Bez!

 

[la4angus]

Actually LA - I am with you only I am of a stronger opinion.If it is to be sold as certified Angus or Herf beef - I believe there should ONLY be Angus or Herf in the animal. You and I both know there is lots of quality there without the cross breeding. Bez!

Bez, you and I and many others know that you are right. With CAB and CHB being strictly English breeds and having the quality grade of upper 2/3 Choice or better I believe the value of Angus and Herefords would go up 35%. I believe there is enough demand for high quality beef to support that kind of price.

 

[MikeC]

Actually LA - I am with you only I am of a stronger opinion.If it is to be sold as certified Angus or Herf beef - I believe there should ONLY be Angus or Herf in the animal. You and I both know there is lots of quality there without the cross breeding. Bez!

Bez, you and I and many others know that you are right. With CAB and CHB being strictly English breeds and having the quality grade of upper 2/3 Choice or better I believe the value of Angus and Herefords would go up 35%. I believe there is enough demand for high quality beef to support that kind of price.

I wonder how they would go up 35% when only 15-20% will make the grade?

 

[lakading]

Actually LA - I am with you only I am of a stronger opinion.If it is to be sold as certified Angus or Herf beef - I believe there should ONLY be Angus or Herf in the animal. You and I both know there is lots of quality there without the cross breeding. Bez!

Bez, you and I and many others know that you are right. With CAB and CHB being strictly English breeds and having the quality grade of upper 2/3 Choice or better I believe the value of Angus and Herefords would go up 35%. I believe there is enough demand for high quality beef to support that kind of price.

I wonder how they would go up 35% when only 15-20% will make the grade?

For one thing, they could stop letting any joker off the street feed them.

 

[VanC]

I wonder how they would go up 35% when only 15-20% will make the grade?

I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that if CAB required at least half Angus breeding, the percentage that qualify would go up.

 

[la4angus]

I wonder how they would go up 35% when only 15-20% will make the grade?

Easily. If there is a shortage of the Angus or Hereford beef and the demand was greater than the supply, the price could go much higher than 35% from what it is now.

 

[Frankie]

Van:

"must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage."

That's correct, and now the parentage can be Red Angus because it also can be traced back to Angus parentage. Not too hard to understand.

Throws the mandatory black requirement out.

Personally I don't think it makes a hoot-n-be nice what color the hair is if it meets the quality grade specs.

Just don't lead people to believe it's ALL angus blood. Which is the intent.

Red Angus are Red Angus, not Angus. There's a difference. Nothing "throws the mandatory black requirement out"? There are two ways to qualify, phenotype and genotype. Neither one of them allow a red, Red Angus, ear tag or not, into the program.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/Sc ... ed-GLA.htm

"2.1 Genotype. Cattle eligible for Angus influence beef programs based on genotype must have positive identification (ear tags, tattoos, brands, etc.) and be traceable back to provable (e.g.; registration papers) Angus parentage. Qualifying cattle must be traceable to one registered parent or two registered grandparents. Programs which claim a specified percentage of Angus heritage must use this method.

2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs."

Then why are you trying so hard to prove that Red Angus can be part of the progam. They can, BTW, if they're black, ear tag or not.

 

[Frankie]

I wonder how they would go up 35% when only 15-20% will make the grade?

I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that if CAB required at least half Angus breeding, the percentage that qualify would go up.

You're right. Cattle known to be sired by an Angus bull meet the CAB specs at a higher rate than generic black cattle.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,

I don't want to hijack the thread and turn it into a CHB thread, but what you posted actually proves what I am saying.

The phenotypic guidelines you posted are written based on how we know Hereford bulls mark up calves from British cows. Simmental Bulls throw a high percentage blaze face, not a white face with the other indicative Herf markings. The intent is to get Hereford influenced calves, and for good reason. The whole CHB program is based on the research-proven fact that Hereford and Hereford influenced beef (if the other percentage is British) has, at select grade, equal or better eating and cooking qualities as USDA Choice. They are saying, "Even though it doesn't grade choice, it will still be just as good as choice because it's Hereford." That's a bold statement, and it's been accurate based on CHB's growth and awards.

If you start letting in Simmental calves because they have white on the face and you need some calves, your select grade carcasses are not going to provide the quality your customers have come to expect, and you can't let that happen. The concept behind CHB is very different from CAB and almost all other branded programs. So, again, if anything other than a Hereford influenced animal is let into the program, it is a mistake or a lie.

I know, and so does CHB, that there will always be cows that a producer says are half Herf and half Angus, but are really half herf and half Brangus, and there is little you can do about that, but the intent is to get Hereford x British calves.

Nothing in the CHB phenotype requirements says the animal can't be half Continental. Breed a Hereford bull to a black or red Limi or Simmental cow and you've got CHB, if the carcass quality is there.

The intent of CAB is to get Angus sired cattle, too, but many breeds have turned black and today we often don't know which calves are sired by Angus or a black Breed X bull. IMO, that's why we can't get the % meeting the specifications up.

 

[Frankie]

http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4237#4237

Angus Source info with CAB

Thank you. I, too, assumed that the AngusSource tag would qualify them for CAB. I guess if/when the change is made they'll put it in the USAD specs.

 

[Frankie]

Well I started this mess and now I'm thoroughly confused. :help: The website I found with the CAB live animal requirements isn't much help.
Under phenotype, it gives the 51% black hide requirement,etc. But under genotype, it simply states that the animal "must have positive identification and be traceable back to provable Angus parentage." Nothing about color. I read this to mean that ANY color animal could qualify IF one of the parents was a registered Angus. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but what am I missing here? I understand what is being said about the hide needing to be 51% black, but can you all see why I find this so confusing?

It's an either/or situation. An animal may qualify under the phenotype, black, minimal hump, no dairy influence, etc. Or they can qualify under the genotype rules: traceable to registered Angus.

As for CHB, I don't find their requirements any less confusing. Under phenotype, it says the cattle " must exhibit some or all of the traditional markings of a Hereford or Hereford/English crossbred," etc. Doesn't say it HAS to be 100% British, just needs to look like it.Then, under genotype, its says the cattle must be proven to be "at least 1/2 Hereford breeding and 100% British bred". Again, I don't get it. Am I dense, or does this confuse anybody else out there?
Either way, I'm having a heckuva good time with this.

Same with CHB, an either or situation. It is a lot of fun.

When the CAB program started out, there was only a small packer producing product. As it grew, they had to license larger packers and the larger packers weren't convinced that it was worth their while to mess with the program. AAA actually sent people to packing plants to train them. If the requirement had been to identify half blood Angus cattle, there would have been no way they would have accepted it.Today packers make a lot of money off CAB and are happy to work with other organizations to produce other branded beef. As we get the animal ID in place, I think they'll change the program to only accept Angus cattle.

 

[VanC]

It's an either/or situation. An animal may qualify under the phenotype, black, minimal hump, no dairy influence, etc. Or they can qualify under the genotype rules: traceable to registered Angus.

Frankie: I know you must be getting sick of explaining all this, but here's where I'm still confused:
If its either/or, then the animal could qualify under only the genotype rules, but not the phenotype rules. The genotype rules don't mention anything about coat color. If you mate two registered Angus, and they both carry the red factor, the calf could be red. Why wouldn't that calf qualify, since it can be traced to Angus parents?

 

[Aero]

http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4237#4237

Angus Source info with CAB

Thank you. I, too, assumed that the AngusSource tag would qualify them for CAB. I guess if/when the change is made they'll put it in the USAD specs.

i still dont quite understand why a registered dam wont get an Angus Source tag though. it just bothers me... and kinda messes up my plans.

 

[Frankie]

It's an either/or situation. An animal may qualify under the phenotype, black, minimal hump, no dairy influence, etc. Or they can qualify under the genotype rules: traceable to registered Angus.

Frankie: I know you must be getting sick of explaining all this, but here's where I'm still confused:
If its either/or, then the animal could qualify under only the genotype rules, but not the phenotype rules. The genotype rules don't mention anything about coat color. If you mate two registered Angus, and they both carry the red factor, the calf could be red. Why wouldn't that calf qualify, since it can be traced to Angus parents?

Qualification is either by phenotype or genotype, not necessarily both. Yes, the red calf should qualify if you can show his parents were registered Angus. From a practical standpoint, I don't know how or who you need to prove that to. That's where you should get in touch with your regional manager. Here's the link to his email again: http://www.angusproductions.com/api_regional.html

If I know the answer, I don't mind answering questions.

 

[Frankie]

http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4237#4237

Angus Source info with CAB

Thank you. I, too, assumed that the AngusSource tag would qualify them for CAB. I guess if/when the change is made they'll put it in the USAD specs.

i still dont quite understand why a registered dam wont get an Angus Source tag though. it just bothers me... and kinda messes up my plans.

Be patient. I'll bet it will come. The program is still fairly new. I'm sure it's got some kinks to be worked out.