Another bull to judge

[SEC]

How many people can tell with their eyes on a mature bull whether or not they are a calving ease bull? Aside from the extreme or very narrow bull, most bulls when mature and in decent condition look broad in the front end.

I will back this comment up for those who have seen AAR Really WIndy at Hawkeye he didn't appear to be a calving ease bull. Yet he was!
I agree with Doc with the Milk EPD being concentrated on the cattle will soon resemble milk cows. Traveler 71, New Trend 315 are very good examples.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

How many people can tell with their eyes on a mature bull whether or not they are a calving ease bull? Aside from the extreme or very narrow bull, most bulls when mature and in decent condition look broad in the front end.

Ummmmm, its pretty easy to tell a coarse front shoulder from a smooth front shoulder on a bull of any age. Its unfortunate that modern day cattle producers, especially those coming out of university, have forgotten how to truly look at an animal and see what they're getting. It can be tough to do it from a picture, because an off stance can throw things off, but up close and personal?

Rod

 

[Beefy]

no depth. at all. doesnt even really look like an angus, but whatever.

 

[SEC]

WHew! I never went to University so I hope I am off the hook! LOL!

I think differently, the obvious calving ease leaders that look like longhorns are easy to see. When the bull is filled out, if he has somewhat of a forearm (I know that isn't his shoulder, but it's all part of his front end)

Personally there have been enough bulls I have seen that don't look like heifer bulls in the slightest but are.

Seth has a Red Angus bull that when you look at him from the front you wouldn't think he would calve good on heifers and yet he does!

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I guess this will have to be something we disagree on then. I've watched my uncle pick calving ease bulls out of pens of 20 or more bulls, and nail every last one of them. Ditto for the two of the pasture cowboys that I work with.

There are certainly exceptions to the rule, and alot of the ability can only come with age and experience. If you don't have that age, experience, or ability, then don't knock the folks who do. Phenotype and actual BW can be used to ACCURATELY pick calving ease animals. Its been done for decades. What do you think we used before EPDs? Quite frankly, I find conformation to be a MUCH more accurate indicator of calving ease than EPDs.

Rod

 

[buckaroo_bif]

no depth. at all. doesnt even really look like an angus, but whatever.

words of wisdom from the most expert cattleman in the world

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't LOVE this bull phenotypically. I would like to see him thicker, with more muscle expression, with more shape and spring to his rib, and YES he could be deeper ribbed; BUT saying that he has no "depth of rib at all" is being overly harsh and I don't see how calving ease is even an issue here. It does not take somebody's grandaddy with a weegee board OR the EPDs to look at this bull and figure out that this bull should present NO real problems at calving. ANY set of cows where you would be pulling lots of calves and doing several C-sections with this mellow Angus bull needs to be dispersed.

 

[la4angus]

What do you think we used before EPDs? Quite frankly, I find conformation to be a MUCH more accurate indicator of calving ease than EPDs.

Rod

I have to agree with you on this. A heavy bull siring calves shaped like baseball bats are much more calving ease sires than bulls siring calves shaped like basketballs.

 

[mtnman]

Man, SEC, we must see them differently.

Really Windy was about 7 - 7.5 frame, and about 15 inches wide when I saw him.

mtnman

 

[haymaker]

Doc here is his reg. number. I never said WOCR GREAT PLAINS 800R Reg #315175, was purebread angus, I think everyone is just assuming that . His EPD's need to be compared to ACA #'s, which makes the 7.6 not too far off from the breeds avg. I feel conifident his daughters will milk well enough to raise a calf
http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=315175

 

[Brandonm2]

Chianina???
I got fooled that time.

 

[Australian Cattleman]

It wouldn't surprise me whats in Angus cattle these days. An old cattleman who used to use Angus bulls over his heifers said to me the other day without any prompting. I simply can not trust the breed now to safely to use them on my heifers,he uses a Murray Grey now. His cows are good Herefords. We bought a line of 10 South Devon Hereford heifers in calf to an Angus bull and pulled 5 of them. Angus used to be the safest bull after a Jersey to use on first calvers.

 

[lakading]

Angus used to be the safest bull after a Jersey to use on first calvers.

Still is...if you find the right source.

 

[Jake]

When Jake compared Holsteins to Angus, thats like Apples and Oranges. I would agree that there is a epd that needs to fit your environment and feed supply. I agree that 18 is plenty for milk, but when a bulls epds are below breed average, a flag goes up to me.

Maybe this bull has older genetics which would bring the numbers down compared to today's breed average. But what I am saying is that on the epd side of things, a 7.6 milk epd is going to drag down any heifers that are at or near breed average.

I don't judge on epds alone, but they are a tool that people need to seriously look at when mating cattle. In a commercial herd that milks good, this is probably okay. But from a reigstered stand point, a bull with that milk epd is a little too low.

Go ahead and beat up on me and what my thoughts are, but I think you need to select cattle for balanced traits across the board. And 7.6 for milk is not balanced unless WW epd is 12 and YW is 25. Just my opinion.

[/quote]

ENNOT your wrong... wasn't directly comparing holstens to angus... I'm saying that a cow doesn't have to milk like a holstein to be PROFITABLE AND EFFICIENT. Wow concepts that are hard to come by these day I know but an animal with below breed average milk EPD is nothing to worry about because the average means nothing in this case because milk EPDs are a sole base on your environment because of the 30 milks out there that raise the epd and the negative milks that lower it. Yes this does somewhat apply to every EPD that's why a person needs to find an EPD set that fits their budget and their herd base. AVERAGES MEAN NOTHING!! WHAT YOUR HERD NEEDS IS ALL THAT MEANS ANYTHING. Like I said it has been proven (no I can't bring up the article because it was in an angus bulletin from years ago) that a milk EPD between 7-12 is perfect for range or conditions in which the animal does not recieve ample supplements.

 

[Beefy]

no depth. at all. doesnt even really look like an angus, but whatever.

words of wisdom from the most expert cattleman in the world

um, ok...
when did that happen and why wasnt i notified?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc here is his reg. number. I never said WOCR GREAT PLAINS 800R Reg #315175, was purebread angus, I think everyone is just assuming that . His EPD's need to be compared to ACA #'s, which makes the 7.6 not too far off from the breeds avg. I feel conifident his daughters will milk well enough to raise a calf
http://www.acaregistry.org/detail.aspx?reg=315175

haymaker- In your original post, you said the bull was SIRED by OCC GREAT PLAINS. I made the mistake of assuming that he was Angus. But I did not think that the bull in the pictures was purebred Angus. Thank you for posting his EPDs and letting us know that he is Chianna. It does make a difference when it is a different BREED we are evaluating! NOW I understand the MILK EPD of 7.6! It would be nice if all the associations would decide to graciously accept the "Across Breed EPD's" and stop the egotistical battling processes. But it will be a long time before Breed Associations will pool their data and present their EPD's on the same basis.

In the near future, CSU will have software available on line whereby a commercial producer will be able to plug in their cost and price parameters along with biological inputs on the type of COWHERD they have, and it will account for heterosis as well as additive differences between breeds to calculate the profitability of sires for the given circumstances. This information comes from the American Simmental Association, and it is a welcome bit of news!

The BIG problem with effectively and pragmatically utilizing Phenotypes and Genotypes (EPD's) is the ability to place the PROPER weight (importance - significance - validity) to each trait (characteristic), understanding the DEGREE of heritability of EACH one, and maintaining an INTELLIGENT balance between ALL of them! An analogy would be similar to herding cats!

Again, haymaker - thank you for helping to put this " 7.6 Milk EPD" to rest! I feel abashed that I did not recognize the reason it APPEARED so much lower than I expected!

DOC HARRIS

 

[SEC]

Mtnman, we know how you see things. I seen Really Windy in the Stud in 2003 and if you looked at his front end you would have never guessed he was a calving ease bull. That comment was also repeated by long time cattlemen/ Angus breeders. His back end was only about 15 inches wide but not his front end.

When it comes to phenotype I have great faith in what I see and to date haven't picked a cow killer yet either. I also have lots of faith in my cattle and their ability to calve unassisted.

 

[haymaker]

I wouldn't really conisider him Chinna when he 90% Angus, aLthough his numbers are relative to the ACA numbers. I really enjoy reading these post, Its a good place to learn and understand things about the cattle business. Doc I tend to agree with you, the numbers are a tool to help in selection.
JRP

 

[capt]

DiamondScattle, I agree that it is pretty easy to distinguish between a course shoulder and a smooth shoulder and I agree that the ability to properly evaluate cattle is a skill that is dominishing. I would also add describing cattle with proper terminology to that. I have tended to agree with you and Doc Harris on your descriptions and opinions of the bull in question. I would, however, have to say that there are some coming out of university programs that are skilled in visual appraisal of beef cattle. It seems to me that there is way too much reliance on bull studs appraisal of cattle quality that people seem to take that opinion for gospel. I don't think there would be aproblem calving cows or heifers out of this bull, but I sure wouldn't use him.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

DiamondScattle, I agree that it is pretty easy to distinguish between a course shoulder and a smooth shoulder and I agree that the ability to properly evaluate cattle is a skill that is dominishing. I would also add describing cattle with proper terminology to that. I have tended to agree with you and Doc Harris on your descriptions and opinions of the bull in question. I would, however, have to say that there are some coming out of university programs that are skilled in visual appraisal of beef cattle. It seems to me that there is way too much reliance on bull studs appraisal of cattle quality that people seem to take that opinion for gospel. I don't think there would be aproblem calving cows or heifers out of this bull, but I sure wouldn't use him.

I swung my brush pretty wide when I hacked on the kids coming out of University, and should not have. If my brush splattered someone it should not have, I apologize. I've also known plenty of old time cattlemen that couldn't properly appraise an animal either. I wish that schools were teaching more visual appraisal techniques however.

As for this bull, perhaps my eyes are being fooled by some of shadings the photograph, but just above his brisket area as it moves into the shoulders looks a little coarse to me. Its going to depend on birthweight, as I mentioned in the earlier assessment, but at 80-85lb birthweights, I think on 9 - 1100 pound heifers, you'd be pulling 1 in 20. Just an opinion of course and we all know what those are like.

Rod[/img]