angus question

[bishopcattleco]

why in the say 1980s 1990s did angus bulls not have the big ass structure they do now.to me a angus bull used to look like a jersey bull butt wise.i have my own belief on this matter but i want to know what everyone else thinks. angus used to be the smaller sized cattle.

 

[Frankie]

why in the say 1980s 1990s did angus bulls not have the big ass structure they do now.to me a angus bull used to look like a jersey bull butt wise.i have my own belief on this matter but i want to know what everyone else thinks. angus used to be the smaller sized cattle.

Herefords used to be smaller, too. Simmentals used to be bigger. Maines were huge. And Angus used to be smaller. Then some got very big. Now you can find about whatever size you want. In 1980 the average height for an Angus yearling bull, reported through the AHIR program was 47.7 inches. In 2008 it was 50.1 inches. Yearling weights for those years was 922 in 1980 and 1,137 in 2008. The packers wanted bigger cattle than what we were raising back in those days, so we bred the big ones to the bigger ones and created a bigger Angus.

 

[alftn]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

 

[giftedcowboy]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

I looking forward to when Genome sequencing becomes available so that each animal can be mapped. I think there will be many discoveries as to what actually it means to use the term Angus, Hereford etc.

 

[Frankie]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

I looking forward to when Genome sequencing becomes available so that each animal can be mapped. I think there will be many discoveries as to what actually it means to use the term Angus, Hereford etc.

Your wish has been fulfilled.

Scientists sequence the bovine genome
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04 ... 240509600/

Completed bovine genome sequence opens door to better cattle production http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-04/uom-cbg042109.php

Bovine genome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_genome

 

[giftedcowboy]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

I looking forward to when Genome sequencing becomes available so that each animal can be mapped. I think there will be many discoveries as to what actually it means to use the term Angus, Hereford etc.

Your wish has been fulfilled.

Scientists sequence the bovine genome
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04 ... 240509600/

Completed bovine genome sequence opens door to better cattle production http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-04/uom-cbg042109.php

Bovine genome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_genome

The above reference speaks of the old news that they have a complete Genome sequence on one Hereford cow. That reasearch along with the partial sequencing of her sire and a few others took 300 scientists 6 years to complete. We are still waiting for the day when they can sequence each and every animal on a imediate demand basis. Scientists working with the Angus Assoc have found that the sequence data in Angus is either incorrect or incomplete. I think we may be waiting for a long time to have a complete sequencing project.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

I looking forward to when Genome sequencing becomes available so that each animal can be mapped. I think there will be many discoveries as to what actually it means to use the term Angus, Hereford etc.

I think there has been a lot of Monkey business going on in a lot of breeds in the last forty years not just Angus.
There is a dollar bill invovled a man will lie, cheat, and steal to get it. Where did those goggled eyed Herefords come from overnight Simm is my quess.

 

[alacattleman]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

 

[LoveMoo11]

Almost every breed there is of every type of livestock is growing-people have been trying to get bigger cattle for years, and now its getting to be a bit much. I don't know if you read American Agriculturist but they had some great articles in this months issue about how cattle are getting bigger, etc. Turns out you actually turn a bigger profit on the more moderate/small cows in most cases. They also had an article about cattle in Alaska that became feral and over the years they have become much smaller and more like the "old type" cattle because it is more conducive to their new lifestyle. Pretty interesting if you get a chance to read it.

 

[alacattleman]

Almost every breed there is of every type of livestock is growing-people have been trying to get bigger cattle for years, and now its getting to be a bit much. I don't know if you read American Agriculturist but they had some great articles in this months issue about how cattle are getting bigger, etc. Turns out you actually turn a bigger profit on the more moderate/small cows in most cases. is more They also had an article about cattle in Alaska that became feral and over the years they have become much smaller and more like the "old type" cattle because it conducive to their new lifestyle. Pretty interesting if you get a chance to read it.

ive notice inbreed herds that became smaller over the years

 

[dun]

Almost every breed there is of every type of livestock is growing-people have been trying to get bigger cattle for years, and now its getting to be a bit much. I don't know if you read American Agriculturist but they had some great articles in this months issue about how cattle are getting bigger, etc. Turns out you actually turn a bigger profit on the more moderate/small cows in most cases. is more They also had an article about cattle in Alaska that became feral and over the years they have become much smaller and more like the "old type" cattle because it conducive to their new lifestyle. Pretty interesting if you get a chance to read it.

ive notice inbreed herds that became smaller over the years

That's one problem with heterosis. Seems like the F1s are alwasy bigger then either parent. But breeding the F1 back to one of the parent breeds seems to knock the frame back down some.

 

[gizmom]

Ok I am an Angus breeder, been doing this for twenty years I know that in the twenty years the breed has changed with some running after single trait selection. I think this is a mistake but it is just that my opinion, we breed for balance in all traits and feel that this is the best way to provide the best product for our customers. We have never knowingly used anything but pure Angus and I know that there will be comments on this but I did say knowingly, we started DNA testing each of our calves two years ago this way I can assure our customers that the animal we are selling is in fact who we said it is. Even doing this you can still have problems, for example last year calf #829 a nice heifer calf, her dam 007 was AI'd then put in with a herd bull. She didn't settle AI so I assumed (yep break it down) that she was bred to our herd bull 464. DNA test said no, then tested the other bull used for clean up NO then tested everything in the AI tank NO........scratch my head awhile and realize that for two weeks at the beginning of the breeding season we had two bulls in the commercial pasture for clean up but after two weeks the young bull had a broken penis and went to the sale barn (this bull was born the year before we started DNA testing.) The only thing we can figure out is that he must have received his injury trying to breed a cow through the fence but he was the only other bull that could have possibly bred this cow. No record of the bull being out of the pasture he was assigned to. We resubmitted samples just to make sure the original sample wasn't contaminated, still no luck. I am saying this to express that yes there could be other breeds that have slipped into an Angus herd. However prior to DNA testing how would a breeder ever know that this had happened? I think most of us try very hard to do the right thing and with new technology we can do even better.
That being said how in the world they got a white charolais to turn black is way beyond me.

http://www.gizmoangus.com

http://www.gizmoangus.blogspot.com

 

[Caustic Burno]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

It means absolutely nothing man has selectively been breeding cattle for thousands of years and people think that because someone came up with EPDS forty years ago you can change a breed overnight. And some have been changed overnight chasing that dollar through disception. Are EPD's useful you bet but and this is a big but you need 1000's of progeny to prove an EPD is a heiritable trait.
That is just like you have a black Simm, Limm, Gel, Hereford and so on and so on. Chasing a dollar not improving there breed is why. These breeds do not exsist as Angus genetics were infused to get black hair they are composites. If they were not they wouldn't be black not that they are bad cattle by any means. I have heard people argue all the Angus has been bred out of them but black hair. If all the Angus was out they wouldn't be black they are still carrying Angus DNA.
If all these breeds were willing to infuse other cattle you don't think an Angus breeder wouldn't do the same thing to gain frame. Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.
That sure is a leap of faith to think all these breeds have been kept pure
Why is there green papered Herefords and White?
I am sorry when you breed cattle there is thousands of years of genetics just because you select two bigger animals doesn't mean the trait will be passed on.
There are some new composite breeds but they at least had the honesty to call them a composite Brangus for one and I own them as well as Brafords.
Are there ethical breeders you bet and I bet the majority are, there is also unethical breeders as well.
Cattlemen are worse than a Bass fisherman for chasing the latest fad.JMHO.

 

[3waycross]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

It means absolutely nothing man has selectively been breeding cattle for thousands of years and people think that because someone came up with EPDS forty years ago you can change a breed overnight. And some have been changed overnight chasing that dollar through disception. Are EPD's useful you bet but and this is a big but you need 1000's of progeny to prove an EPD is a heiritable trait.
That is just like you have a black Simm, Limm, Gel, Hereford and so on and so on. Chasing a dollar not improving there breed is why. These breeds do not exsist as Angus genetics were infused to get black hair they are composites. If they were not they wouldn't be black not that they are bad cattle by any means. I have heard people argue all the Angus has been bred out of them but black hair. If all the Angus was out they wouldn't be black they are still carrying Angus DNA.
If all these breeds were willing to infuse other cattle you don't think an Angus breeder wouldn't do the same thing to gain frame. Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.
That sure is a leap of faith to think all these breeds have been kept pure
Why is there green papered Herefords and White?
I am sorry when you breed cattle there is thousands of years of genetics just because you select two bigger animals doesn't mean the trait will be passed on.
There are some new composite breeds but they at least had the honesty to call them a composite Brangus for one and I own them as well as Brafords.
Are there ethical breeders you bet and I bet the majority are, there is also unethical breeders as well.
Cattlemen are worse than a Bass fisherman for chasing the latest fad.JMHO.

Totally agree. Miracles are few and far between. Sumthin in the woodpile is a lot more common. Intentional or not

 

[Aaron]

Why in the 1940 were peoples so small? How did we get so large and Tall? Someone must have slipped some GAINT blood in there.....

It seems tha every time Angus is talk about, someone implies that there is non-angus blood infusion ...

Genetic selection is a powerful thing...

I am familiar with the Hereford history, so I will use it as the example.

Line breeding to the point of inbreeding was the cause, and dwarfism is a horror that was caused by it. I have the '56 and '57 American Hereford Journal reference issues on hand and can tell you it is just a handful of pedigrees across the whole magazine (which is about 2 inches thick). Now not everyone jumped in. There are a handful of operations in those books that did maintain moderate (much larger) sized Herefords. Not everyone jumps on the same bandwagon.

Everything changes. The original Hereford cows of the 1700's used to have an average weight of 3000 lbs and the bulls 4000 lbs. Linebacks and mottle faces were common. Polled Herefords didn't exist. About 1903, one fellow in the US sent out surveys to Hereford breeders asking about the incidence of genetic 'hornless freaks' in the US herd. In total, there were about 1500. He bought some of these cattle and started the Polled Hereford breed.

Jump to the 30's-60's anyone who was anyone in the breeding world went small. Some didn't.

Nobody is going to say that Simmental and Red Holstein influence did not enter some genetic lines of the Hereford world in the past. But to say that it was the entire source of many changes to the Hereford breed would be inaccurate. It didn't take long for truth to be known about 'suspect' bulls, and many never reached any significance (in terms of daughters in production) because of it. Real breeders deal with the hand they are dealt. Fly-by-night breeders will cheat to get to where they want to be and more often than not, pay the consequences for it. :cowboy:

 

[alacattleman]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

It means absolutely nothing man has selectively been breeding cattle for thousands of years and people think that because someone came up with EPDS forty years ago you can change a breed overnight. And some have been changed overnight chasing that dollar through disception. Are EPD's useful you bet but and this is a big but you need 1000's of progeny to prove an EPD is a heiritable trait.
That is just like you have a black Simm, Limm, Gel, Hereford and so on and so on. Chasing a dollar not improving there breed is why. These breeds do not exsist as Angus genetics were infused to get black hair they are composites. If they were not they wouldn't be black not that they are bad cattle by any means. I have heard people argue all the Angus has been bred out of them but black hair. If all the Angus was out they wouldn't be black they are still carrying Angus DNA.
If all these breeds were willing to infuse other cattle you don't think an Angus breeder wouldn't do the same thing to gain frame. Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.
That sure is a leap of faith to think all these breeds have been kept pure
Why is there green papered Herefords and White?
I am sorry when you breed cattle there is thousands of years of genetics just because you select two bigger animals doesn't mean the trait will be passed on.
There are some new composite breeds but they at least had the honesty to call them a composite Brangus for one and I own them as well as Brafords.
Are there ethical breeders you bet and I bet the majority are, there is also unethical breeders as well.
Cattlemen are worse than a Bass fisherman for chasing the latest fad.JMHO.

not talking fads or epds just the opposite,,,but what a angus bull should like,,,he's a scottish bull

 

[backhoeboogie]

Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.

Really big. Way above average.

Anyone can go to the oldies pics and check the stock shows for themselves if they don't believe it.

 

[Frankie]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

It means absolutely nothing man has selectively been breeding cattle for thousands of years and people think that because someone came up with EPDS forty years ago you can change a breed overnight. And some have been changed overnight chasing that dollar through disception. Are EPD's useful you bet but and this is a big but you need 1000's of progeny to prove an EPD is a heiritable trait.

Of course it means something that man has been breeding cattle for thousands of years. Considering a heifer calves as a two year old, you're talking about twenty generations. That's hardly "overnight." EXT alone has records of 17,000+ daughters' production. His son, Right Time, has records of 7,000+. D H D Traveler 6807 almost 7,000. That data follows their sons or daughters into production to build accuracy of their EPDs.

That is just like you have a black Simm, Limm, Gel, Hereford and so on and so on. Chasing a dollar not improving there breed is why. These breeds do not exsist as Angus genetics were infused to get black hair they are composites. If they were not they wouldn't be black not that they are bad cattle by any means. I have heard people argue all the Angus has been bred out of them but black hair. If all the Angus was out they wouldn't be black they are still carrying Angus DNA.

:roll:

If all these breeds were willing to infuse other cattle you don't think an Angus breeder wouldn't do the same thing to gain frame. Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.
That sure is a leap of faith to think all these breeds have been kept pure.
Why is there green papered Herefords and White?

First of all, Herefords didn't infuse other genetics in their breed. That's why there are green papered Herefords. Black Herefords are a different "breed" and not recognized by the AHA.
Second, mistakes are made by even the most careful. But the AAA has always used the best science/information available to identify mistakes.

I am sorry when you breed cattle there is thousands of years of genetics just because you select two bigger animals doesn't mean the trait will be passed on.

What do you think happens to that trait? It just disapperars? :roll: Most traits aren't controlled by one gene so, while it might show up with one generation of breeding, it takes several generations to get stability. Using your "40 years", that's enough generations to breed big to big and expect to get big.

There are some new composite breeds but they at least had the honesty to call them a composite Brangus for one and I own them as well as Brafords.
Are there ethical breeders you bet and I bet the majority are, there is also unethical breeders as well.
Cattlemen are worse than a Bass fisherman for chasing the latest fad.JMHO.

[/quote][/quote]

I guess it depends on who you talk to, but I know Brangus breeders who claim their breed is pure Brangus. I will agree with you that many cattlemen tend to look for the "silver bullet" that will magically make us all profitable.

I'll attach the link to Dr. Harlan Ritchie's "HISTORICAL REVIEW OF CATTLE TYPE" that clearly shows Angus and Herefords were bigger before they were the smaller critters you talk about.

https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historica ... etype.html

 

[Caustic Burno]

print this and stick it on your refrigerator http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 50&lang=EN

It means absolutely nothing man has selectively been breeding cattle for thousands of years and people think that because someone came up with EPDS forty years ago you can change a breed overnight. And some have been changed overnight chasing that dollar through disception. Are EPD's useful you bet but and this is a big but you need 1000's of progeny to prove an EPD is a heiritable trait.
That is just like you have a black Simm, Limm, Gel, Hereford and so on and so on. Chasing a dollar not improving there breed is why. These breeds do not exsist as Angus genetics were infused to get black hair they are composites. If they were not they wouldn't be black not that they are bad cattle by any means. I have heard people argue all the Angus has been bred out of them but black hair. If all the Angus was out they wouldn't be black they are still carrying Angus DNA.
If all these breeds were willing to infuse other cattle you don't think an Angus breeder wouldn't do the same thing to gain frame. Thirty years ago an 800 pound Angus cow was big as was a 1000 pound bull.
That sure is a leap of faith to think all these breeds have been kept pure
Why is there green papered Herefords and White?
I am sorry when you breed cattle there is thousands of years of genetics just because you select two bigger animals doesn't mean the trait will be passed on.
There are some new composite breeds but they at least had the honesty to call them a composite Brangus for one and I own them as well as Brafords.
Are there ethical breeders you bet and I bet the majority are, there is also unethical breeders as well.
Cattlemen are worse than a Bass fisherman for chasing the latest fad.JMHO.

not talking fads or epds just the opposite,,,but what a angus bull should like,,,he's a scottish bull

I am not saying that Angus, Limms,Simms etc are bad cattle by any means nothing wrong with any of them. If you want a Black Limmi I don't care . If you run a 2500 lb Angus that just seems like a whole lot of frame to change after thousand's of years in just a couple of decades. The changes that have happened to dang near ever breed has just been a little too amazing for my book. Heck most people actually believe now there are Black Limis' Simm's Hereford's and now Char's.
The American cattleman has been chasing bigger and blacker for the last few years and whatever it takes to get it no matter what it does to the breed.
Heck if you can get a Chi to walk by your fence they will register your herd now.
Just a different viewpoint not saying I am right and your wrong or the other way around, just something to think about.

 

[alacattleman]

i guess i must be lost....... i was showing bishop what a real angus bull should look like and got wadded up in a sht storm