ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
you'r gonna start a board wide panic..... i say we kill the messengerOldtimer":oc7q3rpx said:
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Angus Genetic Condition Update
- Thread starter Oldtimer
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ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
how much you gonna offer em, for his worthless carcaasIsomade":32jz3913 said:
Oldtimer
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":35za6jq3 said:
Oh it isn't that bad.. ;-) :lol2: I can think of several herds that it probably has little or no effect on where a person can still get good (better in my opinion) seedstock... Besides Cole Creek- herds like Diamond D, Ohlde, Wye, Shoshone, Sinclair and many lesser known local ones.... So far I don't have any of the bloodlines where the carriers are being found in the registered herd (and didn't with any of the previous genetic defects)...
And like the report indicates- many of these carrier cows have already been eliminated by coming in open and hopefully then been culled...
Just like the other previous defects it will take some time- but hopefully enough honest breeders will work to help eliminate the problem....But for some- it definitely may get costly..
inyati13
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":2gese1de said:
Stated Premises
A. GAR Predestined is a carrier (DDC). Aa
B. Developmental Duplication (DD) is a defect that exhibits recessive inheritance.
C. The dam genotype that was bred to Predestined to produce your Predestined son was a non-carrier. AA
The outcome is as follows:
25% AA
25% AA
25% Aa
25% Aa
50% will be homozygous non-carriers (AA); 50% will be heterozygous carriers (Aa) (agrees with robert)
But none will exhibit a phenotype of DD or inother words be affected with the malady.
If the dam is a carrier (Aa) the outcome is as follows:
25% AA
25% Aa
25% Aa
25% aa
25% will be homozygous non-carriers (AA)
50% will be heterozygous carriers (Aa)
25% will be affected with DD (aa)
inyati13
Well-known member
"They estimate a carrier frequency of about 6% among US sires." The risk, low. Just do the probabilities. Immediately any bull with semen sales that is a carrier, well, that is where the damage is going to be. You could breed every cow in Mason County, KY to GAR Predistined DDC and the statistical probability of having an ecomomic impact on the beef industry here would be less than the loss from bloat. First you got to have the sire and the dam both as carriers and then and only then would 25% of the off-spring exhibit the DD. Come at me one and all. That is my story and I am sticking with it. :hide:
chippie
Well-known member
Still you have a chance of 50% of the offspring being a carrier. Who knows what is hidden in woodpile for many commercial herds.
Thanks for the link oldtimer. Happy to see that our commercial Angus x Beefmaster heifer is by a DD free bull.
Thanks for the link oldtimer. Happy to see that our commercial Angus x Beefmaster heifer is by a DD free bull.
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
At some point, it will become evident to everyone that there isn't an animal alive that doesn't carry, exhibit or both carry and exhibit more than one defect. The more information we gain from genetic testing and discovery, the more we will see.
I think it is not intelligent to completely throw out a useful sire because of a discovered carrier state. 75 years from now, the pedigrees are going to be a mile long to just list the potential defects and status of the animal, its dam and sire. You'll never get the grand dam's and grand sires on the same piece of paper in normal font.
The key will be picking the important defects, and knowing pedigrees.
It use to be that you could cross a terminal breed on a maternal breed and not worry about a thing. Now, you can end up in a wreck that way.
It will all boil down to information and how do you use it.
Now tar me and feather me. But if you don't believe me, I have a theory that I'll share.
I think it is not intelligent to completely throw out a useful sire because of a discovered carrier state. 75 years from now, the pedigrees are going to be a mile long to just list the potential defects and status of the animal, its dam and sire. You'll never get the grand dam's and grand sires on the same piece of paper in normal font.
The key will be picking the important defects, and knowing pedigrees.
It use to be that you could cross a terminal breed on a maternal breed and not worry about a thing. Now, you can end up in a wreck that way.
It will all boil down to information and how do you use it.
Now tar me and feather me. But if you don't believe me, I have a theory that I'll share.
inyati13
Well-known member
I just went through my Angus bull's pedigree. His granddad was B/R New Frontier 095 and is DDF. Thus, I was able to determine his Sire side is free. But none of his mother's sires are listed so he could still carry if he picked up the recessive allele from his dam's side. But at least one side is clean. That narrows the odds.
inyati13
Well-known member
I agree with the core of your statement so no tar and feathers from me.Commercialfarmer":glxwusqf said:
Lucky_P
Well-known member
All indications are - and based on similar condition(duplication/polymelia) that's been extensively studied in mice - that homozygotes - embryos inheriting a copy of the defective gene from both parents - experience a very high incidence of early embryonic death. It's likely that somewhere in the neighborhood of only 1-5% of those make it to term; the rest are aborted early on.
That may explain why some herds which have stacked carriers in their breeding program have experienced higher-than-expected incidence of 'open' cows or apparent conceptionfailures - and, in some cases, why investigations into potential causes of 'infertility' have come up with nada. By that token, a number of those carrier cows may have removed themselves from the genepool, just by virtue of coming up open.
Carrier animals will be phenotypically normal in all respects. Homozygotes surviving to term will be few and far between. Hard to imagine someone keeping a bull - or heifer, for that matter - with one or more extra legs as a breeding animal.
So far, I've dodged the bullet on this defect, as well as AM,NH, and CAC(this one came closest here!) - but I'd sure considered using several of the Angus sires that have come up as DDC; just hadn't pulled the trigger.
Pretty sure Ken Caryl Mr Angus is in the pedigree way back behind some of the Angus genetics in my herd, but all ancestors close up are DDF. Haven't looked extensively, but don't know that any on the carrier list are back in behind any of my Simmental-influenced cows.
Neighbors next door have a number of Predestined & 5050 heifers/cows - I've advised them to be careful what they breed 'em to - definitely not Pred or 5050.
That may explain why some herds which have stacked carriers in their breeding program have experienced higher-than-expected incidence of 'open' cows or apparent conceptionfailures - and, in some cases, why investigations into potential causes of 'infertility' have come up with nada. By that token, a number of those carrier cows may have removed themselves from the genepool, just by virtue of coming up open.
Carrier animals will be phenotypically normal in all respects. Homozygotes surviving to term will be few and far between. Hard to imagine someone keeping a bull - or heifer, for that matter - with one or more extra legs as a breeding animal.
So far, I've dodged the bullet on this defect, as well as AM,NH, and CAC(this one came closest here!) - but I'd sure considered using several of the Angus sires that have come up as DDC; just hadn't pulled the trigger.
Pretty sure Ken Caryl Mr Angus is in the pedigree way back behind some of the Angus genetics in my herd, but all ancestors close up are DDF. Haven't looked extensively, but don't know that any on the carrier list are back in behind any of my Simmental-influenced cows.
Neighbors next door have a number of Predestined & 5050 heifers/cows - I've advised them to be careful what they breed 'em to - definitely not Pred or 5050.
inyati13
Well-known member
Lucky_P":3a74jy1f said:
Thanks for that. You do a very nice job of lucidly pointing out the dirty little secret about genetic defects. They cover their tracks by aborting their defective handywork.
Well here we go again. Our system of verifying was taking the oldest cow in the herd that was a potential carrier and getting a DNA test to verify if she was a carrier or not. If she was a carrier (out of three in the herd one was tested to be a carrier) she got a white tag which in our herd means she is a commercial cow. Any calves out of her in the herd also recieved a white tag and registration on these animals was cancelled.
Angus breeders can go to your angus log-in and pull up the genetic defect page. They already have a list of potential carriers for D2 listed on the site. The only question I have is I have two cows in my herd that I would be concerned about 010 an 036 daughter and 577 a 1407 daughter. The current list shows them with no potential carriers in their pedigree which based on the list of bulls would mean they for sure could be potential carriers. I wonder if they haven't actually completed this report and if so why would they put it up if not completed.
Gizmom
Angus breeders can go to your angus log-in and pull up the genetic defect page. They already have a list of potential carriers for D2 listed on the site. The only question I have is I have two cows in my herd that I would be concerned about 010 an 036 daughter and 577 a 1407 daughter. The current list shows them with no potential carriers in their pedigree which based on the list of bulls would mean they for sure could be potential carriers. I wonder if they haven't actually completed this report and if so why would they put it up if not completed.
Gizmom
D2 is the dwarfism Gizmom, DD is the new defect, they have a preliminary list of tested free and carrier bulls but it is nowhere near complete. I expect it will take several weeks for the potential carrier reports on login to be available to search, may not be til the test is commercially available.
Thanks Robert, I guess I was just getting my D's all mixed up 
. Do you think the board will elect to deal with this defect any differently than the last defects found? They have made so many changes concerning the defects that I can't say I am truly up to date, other than checking the list of my herd to make sure I don't have any potential carriers.
I guess I will just deal with this defect the same way we handled the past, if we have a carrier we will just make it a commercial cow and move forward. We have been blessed thus far and haven't had to deal with much in the way of the defects, hopefully we can dodge another bullet this time.
Gizmom
. Do you think the board will elect to deal with this defect any differently than the last defects found? They have made so many changes concerning the defects that I can't say I am truly up to date, other than checking the list of my herd to make sure I don't have any potential carriers.I guess I will just deal with this defect the same way we handled the past, if we have a carrier we will just make it a commercial cow and move forward. We have been blessed thus far and haven't had to deal with much in the way of the defects, hopefully we can dodge another bullet this time.
Gizmom
redcowsrule33
Well-known member
Luckily I belong to associations that don't force me to throw out the baby with the bathwater. They require testing, but a carrier can keep a registration. The beauty of today is the availability of genetic testing. I have an MA carrier in my herd. Her bulls are steered if they are carriers and the heifers have to be darn good to stay if they are. She is a top cow, and every time she has a calf I have a 50:50 chance of a calf clean of defects. Before anyone jumps on me for selling carrier heifers into the market, I sell to a place that is supposed to use them as slaughter animals. Once they have left the place, I can't control their destiny. My philosophy is that if you buy a market heifer for breeding, that's your risk (one of many).
Unfortunately, here I sit with three cows that I bred 3 weeks ago to a grandson of Predestined (if they all settled). I'll fuss over it until I know the results on the sire (just my nature), but if they settled and he is a carrier, I'll just test and cull. Who knows, the calves might have ended up on the cull list regardless of carrier status anyway. Registration papers don't save testicles around here.
Unfortunately, here I sit with three cows that I bred 3 weeks ago to a grandson of Predestined (if they all settled). I'll fuss over it until I know the results on the sire (just my nature), but if they settled and he is a carrier, I'll just test and cull. Who knows, the calves might have ended up on the cull list regardless of carrier status anyway. Registration papers don't save testicles around here.
boondocks
Well-known member
ousoonerfan22":18omzsbe said:
ARGHHHHHHHH. I just had a heifer AI'd today to Predestined. I'm feeling like an idiot.
She was AI'd 3 weeks ago (to a noncarrier), but went into heat today. The tech came out but had none of the prior semen, suggested Predestined, and we agreed. All I could remember in the heat of the moment was that it was a well-known name and the stats in the catalog (to my untrained eye) looked decent. It all happened so fast.
So, to answer your previous question: apparently the semen has not been pulled on known carriers. No wonder it was available and in the tank....
Any sense having the heifer tested for it now?
Oldtimer
Well-known member
boondocks":1sjhlnq4 said:
Is the heifer a potential carrier because of her genetics ?
I would just wait and if you get a calf you want to keep for a replacement bull or heifer - then test it..
boondocks":3axw6fmy said:
Select Sires came out almost immediately and said they would continue to sell carrier bulls, just another reason to not do business with them. There has been a great rush to minimize the potential impact of DD, and while the initial projections of high embryonic death and few affected calves is a little off base as there are some DD affected animals that show no outward signs of the defect, there seems to be an increased number of conditions associated with this defects expression. As for your heifer, see if she sticks, try and determine is the heifer has any potential to be a carrier, if she's registered then you can go to your AAA member login and check for potential carriers. Good luck!
FWIW my take on this whole deal with the recent revelation of the DD defect is to follow the money.
Who benefits from the revelation of the "defect of the year".
To my untrained eye the impact of DD especially on the national Angus cowherd is pretty much negligable.
So who benefits from all this furer. I know this sounds cynical but usually if you follow the money the truth will reveal itself.
just my :2cents:
Who benefits from the revelation of the "defect of the year".
To my untrained eye the impact of DD especially on the national Angus cowherd is pretty much negligable.
So who benefits from all this furer. I know this sounds cynical but usually if you follow the money the truth will reveal itself.
just my :2cents:
