angus embyo question

[Miss Daisy]

I know a guy that wants to try embryos. He has chosen New Design 878 as the bull, but what is a good cow or line of cows that would compliment this bull to produce good embryos.

edit: he plans to put the embryos in first-calf heifers and use the female offspring to add heifers/cows to his herd

 

[Sage]

Rito 2B94 AAA #14084352
Image Maker AAA #13739532
Great Plains 9520 AAA #13531361
Prime Cut 0145 AAA #13761928

Here are a few to get the ball rolling, I'm sure some of the others here have more experience with these sires that I do and hopefully they will have some good information.

I had some problems with breeding New Design 878 to some Focus heifers (Focus K216 daughters) so I'm a afraid of mixing Focus and New Design genetics. Might have just been bad luck but I was very disappointed.

 

[Frankie]

I know a guy that wants to try embryos. He has chosen New Design 878 as the bull, but what is a good cow or line of cows that would compliment this bull to produce good embryos.

edit: he plans to put the embryos in first-calf heifers and use the female offspring to add heifers/cows to his herd

I don't have a clue. But if he's going to put the embryos in heifers, he needs to be sure the flush cow is a calving ease cow. Otherwise he might lose some to calving difficulty.

 

[ga. prime]

I wonder why he wants to put embryos in heifers and not just some run of the mill recipients?

 

[iowahawkeyes]

I wonder why he wants to put embryos in heifers and not just some run of the mill recipients?

Seems to me I heard that heifers stick better, don't know if it's true. Seems like a big gamble to me.

 

[Brandonm2]

Just find the best quality (phenotypically, production, and EPD) heifers/cows that you can find and AFFORD.

 

[Sage]

Here is some sale info that makes Image Maker sound like a pretty good bet.

"It was an Image Maker day at Green Mountain Angus Ranch"
33 Fall Yearling Bulls $3,470
155 Bull Calves $3,443
129 Commercial Bred Heifers $1,365

TOP BULLS:
Lot 1 - $8,000 a son of HA Image Maker 0415 to Cooney Brothers, Harlowton, MT
Lot 3 - $8,000 a son of HA Image Maker 0415 to Jennaway Angus Ranch, Melstone, MT
Lot 8 - $6,500 a son of HA Image Maker 0415 to Tierney Land & Livestock, Harlowton, MT
Lot 9 - $6,000 a son of HA Image Maker 0415 to Brian Bodell, White Sulphur Springs, MT
Lot 15 - $6,000 a son of HA Image Maker 0415 to Brian Bodell


TOP BRED HEIFERS:
15 head at $1550 bred to HA Image Maker 0415 carrying bull calves to Tierney Ranch
19 head at $1450 bred to HA Image Maker 0415 carrying heifer calves to Wade Hoge, Grass Range, MT

 

[Miss Daisy]

I wonder why he wants to put embryos in heifers and not just some run of the mill recipients?

Seems to me I heard that heifers stick better, don't know if it's true. Seems like a big gamble to me.

Him and his vet have been discussing it and want to try the heifers. He has them and a place to watch them so hopefully it isnt that bad.

I guess i was asking what kind of cow would compliment this bull nicely, to put it clearer. sorry about that.

 

[Angus In Texas]

Personally there is no way I would ever even consider putting embryos into heifers. You are spending way too much money and have way too much invested to put an embryo into an animal that has never been bred, never calved, and never raised a calf. With heifers you don't know if they are fertile, don't know if they will calve easily and when they do if they will have mothering instincts and enough milk to raise a calf. With the amount of money involved I try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Just my opinion though.

 

[KMacGinley]

Heifers are generally clean... Reproductively and statistically have a higher pregnancy rate with et as recips. As far as calving them out, that would indeed be a consideration to be aware of, but if we are talking angus, most popular bulls today don't have much in the way of high birth weight to consider.

 

[highvoltagecattleco]

Question makes no sense. He is picking the bull before the donor cow. Typically you pick the donor cow before the bull. Once you find a donor then you match a bull. Wouldn't it be easier to purchase existing embryos? I'm sure you can find some for 878 out there. Heifers may take an embryo with higher success. Only you run the risk of an underperforming calf. I cant see using a heifer not knowing how she will perform. You can use Boyd Forever Lady 57 D with AAR New Trend. If the cow doesn't milk, the calf is not going to be at full potential.

 

[highvoltagecattleco]

Miss Daisy I see your here in the NW close to me. I don't know where you are getting the donor cows. You could check with Rathbun Angus in Moses Lake and see if he has any embryos.

 

[dillardangus]

I own an interest in a donor cow and have purchased embryos and placed in my cows. I have spent a lot of money and have no calves on the ground yet. I placed 5 embryos in cows at $500 each and the only one that took was born dead. the donor cow will not stay bread and vets dont know why.

If you are going to have an embryo program you better be expecting to spend thousands of dollars and high probability of no return. This is a game for the business breeders that have a lot of $$$$ to throw away.

If you still want to try this you need a proven GREAT cow and then flush her to several bulls that will comp her well. And advertising and well known names help. I could own the same cow as southern or express and my cow will only bring $2000 where they could sell her for $20,000.

My advice is
" if you stay in the middle of the road then you will not end up in a ditch"

 

[Brandonm2]

IF the donor is losing her own pregnancies and 4 out of 5 of her flushed embryos didn't take; then it sounds like you have gotten just an old fashioned infertile cow. Probably LOOKS GREAT too. That happens to all of us.....not just the big time donor buyers. Cut your losses and send her to the sale barn and take the tax write off then buy a new cow and start over again.

 

[Sage]

dillardangus is right be sure it is a proven cow and a proven bull, flushing is not cheap. We flushed our first cow last spring. A 10yr old Red Angus cow sired by Logan 210 with teriffic natural calves. We bred her to FCC Rambo 502 at $900.00/straw using 2 straws (ouch) ended up implanting 5 fresh embryos and freezing 2. Can't wait till calving time, I hope atleast 3 of the five took and will be born alive. We used our best commercial cows as recipients, I feel that if you take a shortcut with the recips you are not getting the full potental from your investment. I think total we are in to TransOva about $1500.00 for this little project.

 

[Miss Daisy]

Question makes no sense. He is picking the bull before the donor cow. Typically you pick the donor cow before the bull. Once you find a donor then you match a bull. Wouldn't it be easier to purchase existing embryos? I'm sure you can find some for 878 out there. Heifers may take an embryo with higher success. Only you run the risk of an underperforming calf. I cant see using a heifer not knowing how she will perform. You can use Boyd Forever Lady 57 D with AAR New Trend. If the cow doesn't milk, the calf is not going to be at full potential.

He used semen out of the bull and likes the results. Where do i look for existing embryos? sorry this is new to me.

 

[Frankie]

Question makes no sense. He is picking the bull before the donor cow. Typically you pick the donor cow before the bull. Once you find a donor then you match a bull. Wouldn't it be easier to purchase existing embryos? I'm sure you can find some for 878 out there. Heifers may take an embryo with higher success. Only you run the risk of an underperforming calf. I cant see using a heifer not knowing how she will perform. You can use Boyd Forever Lady 57 D with AAR New Trend. If the cow doesn't milk, the calf is not going to be at full potential.

He used semen out of the bull and likes the results. Where do i look for existing embryos? sorry this is new to me.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/classifiedsauction.htm

 

[BIGBOY2]

Sage, did you meant to say $1500 Total cost?

 

[dillardangus]

I would start out buying embryos, look at dispersal sales and sales where people donate some. Advantage cattle services is a good place too.
You need to have a great plan on what you are going to do with the results of the embryo. ie. bull test sales or show . you are going to end up with a high blooded animal and not get the real value from it.
Do any of you have trouble with the best blood line animals that you have either not producing or going bad. I have a full brother to Rocking D ambush 1531 and he has a low sperm count.

 

[Frankie]

I would start out buying embryos, look at dispersal sales and sales where people donate some. Advantage cattle services is a good place too.
You need to have a great plan on what you are going to do with the results of the embryo. ie. bull test sales or show . you are going to end up with a high blooded animal and not get the real value from it.
Do any of you have trouble with the best blood line animals that you have either not producing or going bad. I have a full brother to Rocking D ambush 1531 and he has a low sperm count.

ABS had Rockin' D off the market for a couple of years because he wasn't producing. We looked at him for a heifer bull right after he was available. About the time his EPD accuracy got where we wanted, he disappeared. But after a few years, he was available again. I don't know if demand just dropped and he was able to meet it or if he just needed to be older to be productive. Interesting to know that about his brother (tho probably not something you wanted to learn ).

Before they were sexing embryos, we were at a sale in Texas and a new Angus breeder had a couple of bulls for sale. They were good looking bulls. He had bought a high dollar flush from a well known cow, hoping for females. But he got at least two bulls. He was very frustrated when the bulls sold for about the average price of the day.