Angus Bull-Take 2

[inyati13]

I need to PREFACE this post with some background information. I am the owner of an Angus bull that is the subject of a recent thread. I posted a picture of him. I have owned him for a year in July. He will be 3 in October. The responses to that thread provided the confirmation I was seeking to sell him. I plan to procure a bull that will be better. Early this morning I called Mike. Mike is the guy who went with me the day I purchased my bull. He hauled him from the place of purchase to my farm. This is where the background comes in. Mike and I are both 1950s babies. I met Mike when I returned to KY three years ago to raise cattle. He does AI, hauls cattle, is an estate auctioneer, farms, has 4 daughters, and was a cattle buyer for the Flemingsburg Stockyard for 20 years. He has farmed since he was a boy big enough to help his dad. The only hiatus from a life with cattle was when he served in the armed forces during the Vietnam War.

Now, we can get to the point. I called Mike and here is the conversation:

Me "Hey Mike, this is Ron."
Mike "Mr. Ron, what can I do for you."
Me "Mike, I am thinking about selling my bull."
Mike "What happened to him?"
Me "Nothing but I don't think he has the genetics I want, Mike. Have you seen him lately. He has no muscle. His calves don't look like I want."
Mike "Yeah, I see him when I go by your place on the way to Johnnies. He is tall and long. He has a lot of leg under him. That's what you want."
Me "I just want a little more muscle in my calves. I put his picture up on cattle today and they agree."
Mike "Where are you going to sell your calves? Are those people going to buy them? I told you what the buyers want. If you want something else, do what you want but they don't want calves that are already filled out. That is what they want to do. But you suit yourself."
Me "No Mike, I want your opinion on this. But I just think this bull is not going to get it done."
Mike "I don't think you could sell him now. Everyone has their season bulls. I will haul him if that is what you want. I would take him if I needed a bull right now. We could take him to slaughter. They are selling well right now."
Me "I was not planning on selling him privately, I was planning on you taking him to Flemingsburg."
Mike " We can do that. Let me get back to you. I haven't been there this week. You should probably sell him before Labor day if that is what you want. But I would rather have a bull with leg and frame. The calves will bring more with some leg under them."
Me "Well get back to me Mike."
Mike "Alright, Mr. Ron."

Now, do you see why this business will make a man wonder if his azzhole is drilled, punched or dynamited.

 

[chippie]

You need to buy yourself a truck & trailer and by pass this person. You know what you want.

There are people like him all over. I see them when I go to the auction and am amazed at what they spend their money on. On the junkie cattle, I can guarantee who will buy them.

 

[Chuckie]

Inyati, has he been loading your cattle up for you, and taking them to a barn where a buyer purchases from you privately? Or are you selling them at a sale barn?

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, has he been loading your cattle up for you, and taking them to a barn where a buyer purchases from you privately? Or are you selling them at a sale barn?

He comes to the farm, loads them and they go to the stockyard or sale barn where they go in the ring. I have gone and watched them sell so I know he is not dishonest. Mike is a very good man. He is divorced and raised 4 daughters as a single dad. He fought in Vietnam while I was in college. He watches my cattle for me when I have to be gone and never takes a penny. His youngest daughter is about 28 and can kick my butt 10 ways from Sunday on a tractor. Point: He is a good hard working man.

 

[chippie]

I am not saying that he is not a good man. I think that even though he has been around cattle for most of his life, he has not learned what makes a good bull or cow.
Some people just don't have a good eye for livestock.

 

[Chuckie]

Here, the small framed calves don't do as well as larger framed calves do, as it is not all in the legs. When we have sold to private buyers, they wanted thinner calves because they wanted to put them on good pasture to fatten them up and make a profit when they sold them to the buyers going to the feed lots.
That is throwing a lot of money away. At what age does he suggest you sell the calves?
I liked the sale barn because the private buyer is not setting the price. I remember the buyer making the remark as each calf went across the scale, you are getting them too fat! He would dock them for being heavier. That was the end of selling at that barn. They were yearlings in good condition.

 

[inyati13]

I am not saying that he is not a good man. I think that even though he has been around cattle for most of his life, he has not learned what makes a good bull or cow.
Some people just don't have a good eye for livestock.

I agree. I am not defending his wisdom on cattle. I was responding to what Chuckie was commenting on. I maybe didn't understand but I was thinking she was wondering if he was creating a middle market.

I would never want to bite the hand that helps me. Nevertheless, I cannot sit idle if he is misguiding me. He is the one who recommended that I use the teat cannulas on that cow which recently calved and I am now convinced beyond any doubt that it was not necessary.

 

[inyati13]

Here, the small framed calves don't do as well as larger framed calves do, as it is not all in the legs. When we have sold to private buyers, they wanted thinner calves because they wanted to put them on good pasture to fatten them up and make a profit when they sold them to the buyers going to the feed lots.
That is throwing a lot of money away. At what age does he suggest you sell the calves?
I liked the sale barn because the private buyer is not setting the price. I remember the buyer making the remark as each calf went across the scale, you are getting them too fat! He would dock them for being heavier. That was the end of selling at that barn. They were yearlings in good condition.

This is one area I have seen where Mike has been correct. I sold a lot of calves last fall and the fat ones sold 30 to 40 cents less than the ones that were more leggy/larger framed. It makes sense. The feeder lot does not want to buy pounds, they want to put those pounds on at a lower price than what they have to pay for them. So if you put a calf infront of them that is already filled out, it is just going to stand in the feeder lot not making money while it grows its frame.

He tells me to keep the calf on the cow for 7 to 8 months. I have taken some off at 6 months and he criticizes me. But I like to have my calves weaned, broken in to feed and vaccinated before I sell them. Mike says the same thing you mention about the buyers complaining about getting them too fat. They don't want to buy that fat. Thus, they dock you on a per pound basis. I agree with AllForage, cattle markets are a cult compared to most markets.

 

[Putangitangi]

You're going to let this guy tell you "what you want"? You've got to let us do that!
I reckon you need to be a little more subtle, so he doesn't feel his pride is hurt by your taking someone else's ideas. The bull isn't as good as you expected/as good as the last one, you want to get a better bull. You like him a lot, but his calves just aren't quite what you expected ...

When I started out a lot of men in big hats (ok, they didn't wear big hats here, but I bet if they'd been there, their hats would have been really flash) told me a lot of "you should do ..." things and I went and thought about them and sought more information (as much as there wasn't a lot available at the time, just EBVs really) and rejected all their ideas for what I wanted. I bred the herd I knew I wanted to breed, made a lot of mistakes and a lot more progress and am glad I stuck to my own plan.

 

[cow pollinater]

It sounds like he has the concept of condition right but doesn't quite know how to get there. Raise a calf that will grow into something and then get it into the right condition where it won't shrink much for the buyer and you're set. Lanky cattle that won't grow are just that and the buyers know it.
I have a friend of my father who raises red angus and spends all of his time focusing on small frames and cow energy. He is intent on selling me bulls and it's been a challenge saying "NO" without offending him but it can be done.
I think I'd say something to the effect of looking to beat that conditioned price by producing more total pounds and that way he can understand the concept without you insulting his cattle... Let the part about your better growing calves in the proper condition beating the crap out of his calves remain silent.

 

[Chuckie]

I have to agree with Chippie. He means well, and I am sure he has been a good friend. I can hear him saying..."You are going to read what someone wrote on the internet, and sell your bull.....blah, blah..... " You know the speech...... That speech used to be true.
He may can learn from you now, give him time.
I think that you need a heavier weight bull. I don't think your bull is pulling your cow herd up. I think that your nice cow herd is pulling the bull's calf crop up. He is half of your crop. He needs to be awesome as you can afford if you run a bull with your cows.
You must have a masculine bull to produce full bodied feminine cows and masculine bulls. A feminine full bodied cow will produce masculine bulls and full bodied cows. Of course, the genes do not always link up. But you can get your odds up this way.

There is going to be a very nice Angus sale in Mexico Missouri at Sydenstricker's, the last Thursday in November before Thanksgiving if you want a nice, to a really nice Angus bull. Ask jscunn here on the forum about it. He is always there.

http://www.sydgen.com

Last years archived sale book 11/17/2012
http://www.angusjournal.com/salebooks/sydenstricker111712api/

The sale report

http://www.angus.org/AngusProductio...sj9VtjCkrBys=&il=DgAAAEQrujU5dwVoL18j9OafTcE=

 

[AllForage]

I like mike, but the teat thing was a little out there.

Inyati, step out of the mainstream and hang with us lunatics. I think you will like it a whole lot better.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I am going to try and give a little advice. The bull you want to seel calves is not the bull you want to retain heifers out of. You can buy a bull with frame and muscle to sell calves out of. For retaining heifers you need a different bull. Very few bulls can do it all.

 

[kenny thomas]

I see where Mike is coming from a little. I will not buy a 6 frame bull. I want a taller bull. That being said I do like more muscle than this bull shows. If you are keeping heifers maybe that is a problem but I just buy my heifers and sell more pounds of calf. I would rather have him with the cows you have than a 5 frame bull with lots of muscle. In your area I know which calf will sell better and maybe grow better.

 

[Chuckie]

Inyati, Feeder calves always bring more money than a yearling does. One right off of the mamma cow is what they want so that they can gain the pounds before they sell it to the slaughter house.
If you sell as a yearling, you lose per pound, but if you have the resources for the feed, and don't have to pay out the wazoo, sometimes it pays off. Good fertilized hay will keep the weight on them through the winter, and clover in the summer will put the weight on them. A bit of brewer's grain on the tail end will fatten them up lets say with almost double the calf.

 

[inyati13]

I see where Mike is coming from a little. I will not buy a 6 frame bull. I want a taller bull. That being said I do like more muscle than this bull shows. If you are keeping heifers maybe that is a problem but I just buy my heifers and sell more pounds of calf. I would rather have him with the cows you have than a 5 frame bull with lots of muscle. In your area I know which calf will sell better and maybe grow better.

BTW, Kenny, you mentioned Paris in the other thread. Paris is getting a reputation for better prices. That is where the Amish take theirs. Mike has connections at Flemingsburg and prefers taking them there. I would like to sell at Paris. There are rarely more than about 4 buyers at Flemingsburg.

I have 2 of my own heifers. I would rather buy an outstanding bred heifer in November or December and have a calf on the ground in February or March. I can buy at the farm from Rocking P or Maple Heights and if there is a problem, I know where to go.

Mike is a known character here. I saw a guy at one of those service station restaurants day before yesterday. He received the KY Cattle Asso award for his operation by our Chapter. His last name is the same as Mike's. We were taking about Mike. He said people either love or hate him. He has a way of telling you what to do that rubs country folks the wrong way. He said Mike has the nature of forming his own ideas and doing them his way, but he said have no doubts. He does know cattle.

Hope you are getting better. It takes time.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

http://www.downonthefarmradio.com/news/ ... _Herd.aspx

 

[3waycross]

http://www.downonthefarmradio.com/news/11-03-02/Sizing_Down_the_Herd.aspx

Excellant article!

 

[inyati13]

http://www.downonthefarmradio.com/news/11-03-02/Sizing_Down_the_Herd.aspx

Very helpful. Thanks.

 

[inyati13]

I am going to try and give a little advice. The bull you want to seel calves is not the bull you want to retain heifers out of. You can buy a bull with frame and muscle to sell calves out of. For retaining heifers you need a different bull. Very few bulls can do it all.

Thanks, RBB. Can I accomplish the objective of your advice as follows? I get a bull that will produce good calves for the feeder market. I use my AI program to breed my best cows to produce the type of replacement heifers that fit my operation.